On-The-Record Special Briefing on Liberia

MR. ERELI:  I apologize.  What held us up is we were waiting for two, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Liberia and the Minister of Planning of Liberia, to join us.  And I think our entrance escort procedures maybe delayed things a little bit, and so I apologize for the delay.

This is an on-the-record briefing with Director of USAID Andrew Natsios, on the upcoming Liberia Donors Conference, which will be taking place in New York on Thursday and Friday.  Director Natsios will brief us sort of on the objectives of the conference, what some of the highlights are, and then talk with you a little bit per your questions on what we sort of expect to get out of it and maybe just what you're interested in.

Andrew, over to you.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Okay.  Liberia is a terribly broken country.  I have been there several times in the 1990s, when I was in the NGO community.  And when I was in the first Bush Administration, I ran the Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance when this civil war started in December of 1989, we sent the first teams in when everybody else had left.  So I have been over a 14-year period very much involved with the response to one series of crises after another.

As a result of the 14-year civil war, Liberia, which was in the 1970s considered a middle-income country, is now a failed state.  The entire 3.1 million people of the country have been profoundly affected by the protracted conflict; a quarter of a million people died in this civil war, most were non-combatants; half the country, one of the highest figures in the world, is either internally displaced or are refugees; abductions, torture, rape, human rights abuses on a massive scale have taken place.

It's estimated that at least 1 in 10 children may have been recruited into the militias at one time or another.  A similar percentage has been traumatized by seeing their families and friends murdered and raped.  I think the people are really tired of the trauma they have been through.  An enormous effort will be required by the entire international community working together in a coordinated way to conquer the tremendous obstacles to reconstituting the country.

This is the best chance, I think, Liberia has had in a very long time toward taking advantage of this period to begin the general process of reconstituting a competent national government that can provide public services instead of being predatory.

Critical to this whole effort is successful disarmament, demobilization, rehabilitation and reintegration of former combatants.  The most -- the weakest part of the international response system in these emergencies is the security side.  We do know how to stop famines; we know how to prevent famines; we know how to drop dramatically high child mortality rates, high maternal mortality rates; we know how to stimulate an economy; we know how to hold elections.  But it is harder to do DDRR, as we call it, disarmament, demobilization, rehabilitation, reintegration.

It's critically important in this case that we do this because there are so many younger men and, in a very unusual way, women who have been involved in combat over the last few years, an entire generation of Liberia has been lost, and we need to put those kids back in -- not back in school because some of them have never been to school, but to school.  And we've run advanced, accelerated education programs very successful in a number of countries, most particularly and more recently, in Afghanistan and Iraq, where kids that are 15 have never been in school, so we have an accelerated program where they can catch up to their normal grade and we will do that in Liberia as well.

What has happened over the last few months is that the World Bank, the United Nations agencies and the International Monetary Fund have put together a team, working with the interim government and the donors, a strategic framework and an operational plan for reconstituting the government and reconstructing the country, and the plan calls for $487 million over two years to be spent for the reconstruction of the country.

QUESTION:  487?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  487, yeah.

QUESTION:  Total?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Total.

QUESTION:  With all donors?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  No, that's not with donors.  That's what the requirement is.

QUESTION:  Requirement.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Okay.  The pledges will come on Thursday and Friday, when we have our pledging conference in New York, which is why we're having this discussion now.

In addition to the reconstruction effort, UNOCHA, which is the UN Coordinator for Humanitarian Assistance, has put together $179 million, one-year budget, which is just humanitarian not reconstruction.  It's providing the basic requirements to keep people alive, particularly those people who are displaced are refugees.

So getting people back to their homes, given that 50 percent of the people aren't where they're supposed to be, is a very important part of piecing the country back together again.  There are two groups that can't be overlooked:  One is the estimated 15,000 children below the age of 18, who were combatants.  And something unusual I have not seen before, a thousand women were combatants, and they have particular needs, many of them have been traumatized even though they were soldiers, as have the children.

So it's very important that we get a unified donor community behind the new Liberian leadership in this interim period because it's not just that Liberia is going to be affected by a reconstruction effort, but it will stabilize the whole area.  It is the case that it is very difficult in any circumstance, but particularly where you have porous borders that the chaos in one country has no effect on the chaos in neighboring countries.

We know that there was a profound effect on the instability in Liberia and on Charles Taylor's behavior, in terms of the chaos in Sierra Leone.  It also affected Cote d'Ivoire, affected Guinea, it's not something that was limited to the confines of the country itself.  And so we believe that this has profound implications for the stability of the region generally.

I could talk more, but I just want to say that the United States is going to make and has made a major pledge already of the almost $500 million that the assessment has suggested is part of the plan.  The United States will pledge the $200 million that was put in the last supplemental budget which is 40 percent of the amount required to rebuild the country.

So we're making a very generous pledge toward reconstruction, and we hope to work with the interim government on an intimate basis to ensure that these resources are spent wisely and to improve the public services population.

Does anybody have any questions?

QUESTION:  A technical question.  This is part of the Iraq supplemental, that 200 million?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  That's correct.

QUESTION:  Has that already been partially spent, and what's its going for so far?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  None of it has been spent.  We have spent money.  We've already spent $100 million.  So if you want to include what we've already spent with what we're going to pledge, it's $300 million.  There's also $245 million in the -- for peacekeeping that's in the supplemental.  But that's not going to actually be for reconstruction.  We're trying to limit this just to be entirely clear on what we have not yet spent, what's in the supplemental and what's just for reconstruction, and that's $200 million.

QUESTION:  So but the first figure you gave, I thought, was U.S. will pledge 250 million?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  No, 200 million.

QUESTION:  200, all right.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  We have already spent 100 million on food aid, humanitarian assistance and paying for the peacekeeping operations that have already taken place.  But that's in the past.

QUESTION:  Is this confirmed (inaudible) to discuss the level of peacekeeping force (inaudible) in the country?

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  I think there will be discussion --

QUESTION:  (Inaudible.)

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  Yes, it will certainly go into the security issues, but it is not primarily a pledging session for troops, but for funding for reconstruction. 

QUESTION:  Can you talk a little bit about the political reconstruction and what -- will this conference discuss that at all and --

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  Absolutely.  And Chairman Gyude Bryant, who is the chairman of the provisional government, transition government, will speak, I believe, on Friday.  Two of his ministers are --

QUESTION:  Yes.

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  Two of his ministers are here.  The Foreign Minister and the Planning Minister are here with us today.  We met earlier with the -- half the cabinet, I think, in AID and we had a very good discussion about the areas that we would hope to focus on with the new government.

What happens then is there is a process toward elections and the transition government is in place until those elections take place.

QUESTION:  So when are those elections?

MINISTER NIMELY:  2005, 2005.

QUESTION:  Since we have you here, which is a rare opportunity, Mr. Foreign Minister, perhaps you can explain to us the current situation with Charles Taylor and what you expect to become of him in terms of going to trial and whether you think that -- I know when he first got there that both yourselves and the Nigerians were very concerned about perhaps (inaudible) in the affairs of Liberians. 

Do you -- are you confident that that kind of put an end to, or are you still worried that perhaps he could, you know, interfere during this period as you move towards elections?

MINISTER NIMELY:  Well, we have gotten the assurance from the Nigerians that Taylor will be kept within the community that he currently resides.  But in the decision to bring Taylor to trial is a decision of the United Nations.  That's not something that Liberia would like to single-handedly take on.  Our priority here is to disarm the country, rehabilitate our young people, and go forward towards the election and turn to democratic rule. 

We have a lot of citizens that are in all of the neighboring countries that have been there for years, and I think it's time for them to come home.  And we rely on the support of the international community, as well as the United States, to help us do that.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Any other questions for the Minister?

QUESTION:  Can you talk a little bit about the security issue?  Are you satisfied with the level of peacekeepers that you've been getting from the international community?  It seems very slow to build up to the goals that were initially spelled out.

MINISTER NIMELY:  Well, we do understand the slowness of the process, but I think within the past three weeks the number has increased from 4,500 two months ago to about 10,000 now, so we are overwhelmed with the process and we very happy with the pace of the deployment.

QUESTION:  Mr. Minister, how many -- I'm sorry if you said this, I was just out for a second.  How many citizens -- I know you said that 50 percent of the population is displaced, but how --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Or refugees.

MINISTER NIMELY:  Or refugees.  Right.

QUESTION:  Or refugees.  Do you have a total number or an estimate of how many people are actual refugees outside of the country? 

MINISTER NIMELY:  By country it varies.  Guinea, at some point, there were like 300,000 in Guinea, and in the Ivory Coast.  Sierra Leone had the largest because it was just next door.  Like Cote D'Ivoire, 700,000.

MINISTER HERBERT:  Total.

MINISTER NIMELY:  Total, yeah.

QUESTION:  So 300,000 total?

MINISTER NIMELY:  Total 700,000.  We're talking about like Cote D'Ivoire and Guinea --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  You know, the reality in Liberians, people are in neighboring countries, and then they go back to their village to make sure that their houses are --

MINISTER NIMELY:  Right, right.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  And then they go back.

MINISTER NIMELY:  Yes, and then --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  They become refugees, and then they're internally displaced and they're refugees again.

MINISTER NIMELY:  Right, right.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Just that's the way it works. 

QUESTION:  Can you -- the figure that -- this 500 million figure, it might sound like a lot to you, but when we're -- when we listen to what's happening in Iraq and the U.S. spent $87 billion, or is spending, are you surprised that it's taken a big conference to reach that level of 500 million?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Well, it's 3 million people.  Iraq is almost 30 million people.  It's ten times larger in population, and I think that's the distinction.  If you added a zero to what was being requested, it would be $5 billion instead of 500 million.  Is that right?  Yeah, 500 million would be $5 billion.  And so if you want to be comparable, you have to look at the respective populations.

QUESTION:  But I guess, I mean, do you expect it to be easily met, this $500 million?

MINISTER NIMELY:  Considering the length of time we've been suffering and that the world has come to our assistance, I believe their desire to come to this conference today was also a desire to contribute.  So I will expect that we can meet that figure. 

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  We're already at a base of 40 percent success with the United States.  It's no secret that that's what in our budget.  So we're already well on our way.

QUESTION:  Have other nations made a similar pre-pledge?

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  One other country that's made or institution that's made a public pledge already is the European Union.  The EC has pledged $120 million toward this.

QUESTION:  For what, one year or two years?

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  It's for over a two-year period.  That's what the plan is for.

QUESTION:  In dollar terms, right?

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  Yes.  It's $100 million (inaudible) $120 million.

QUESTION:  And that was for reconstruction?

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  Reconstruction. 

QUESTION:  Can you, and perhaps the Minister, discuss some of your plans for the children who are currently in the armed conflict?  What are some of your plans to kind of get them back to school, things like that?

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  Well, typically, the way we do this is the ones who are --

QUESTION:  You've got to keep switching back and forth.  Sorry. 

AMBASSADOR NATSIOS:  Children who are internally displaced, I believe, are not always with their -- some member of their family or their village.  And so when people go back to their villages, they will go back with them.  Typically, whole villages will return in a group.

There will also be an effort to reunite children who have been separated from their family.  That's an ICRC function -- International Community of the Red Cross -- to do family reunification.  So a second step in that process is for children who have been separated from their families, we rely on the ICRC, and some of the NGOs have expertise in how to do this.

You ask families in a village, "Are you missing any children?"  You take the names down and then you do a national search in areas where there are large numbers of children who are separated from their families, and then you reunite them.  That does work.

The third is that some kids will need efforts at rehabilitation, particularly if they've seen a lot of relatives or friends get killed.  We've seen trauma like that in other countries, and it has required some kind of child therapy.  And we may have to do that.  If they've witnessed their entire country, their entire family being massacred or something like that.

QUESTION:  What about some of these 15,000 who were actual soldiers and did some of the killing?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Well, that's also -- we did the same thing in Mozambique.  After the Mozambican civil war, there was a whole effort; in fact, it was a professor from Duke University, Neil Boothby, who I think is with UNICEF now. 

But OFDA hired him -- the Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance -- within AID to do a mass effort at taking the children who had been in the military who had, many of them had killed members of their own family -- forced to by the rebel movement -- to go through a therapy program, and many of them are now very functional and, you know, their guns were taken away from them and they've been integrated back into society.  And it's worked very well.  It was actually a model program.  And I expect that the lessons we learn from other conflicts we will also apply to Liberia.

QUESTION:  Can I ask about an issue that doesn't seem to be on the agenda?  And that's Liberia's debt.  I understand about a third of it is owed to the U.S. and it's in the billions already.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  About $3 billion.  I thought the bulk of it was to the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, but there is something, some owed to the United States.

QUESTION:  Is it --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  It's something we're --

QUESTION:  -- something to consider?  I mean, there's all this --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  We're considering lots of things.

QUESTION:  Well, I mean, are you going to for-- the question is, are you going to forgive it or restructure it?  I mean, you spent like --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  I don't -- I know that discussions are going on.  I can't tell you where they are right now.

A PARTICIPANT:  The Treasury Department is part of the delegation, and they're working on that.  Okay.

QUESTION:  Because I mean, when you see the concerted effort that the U.S. took on behalf of Iraq in terms of forgiving their debt and things like that, I mean, it, you know, to not see that on behalf of Liberia --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  But, you see, Iraq's debt was six times more per capita. 

QUESTION:  Right.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Iraq's debt was $200 billion for a population of 30 million.

QUESTION:  But this is also debt racked up under Charles Taylor.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Well, we understand that.  We understand that.

QUESTION:  Well, and also Iraq has, like, some semblance of a functioning economy and --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Well, I have to say Liberia is not resource poor.  They have some diamond mines and they have more goldmines than Sierra Leone does.  And they have rainforests, unfortunately, that were cut down under Charles Taylor.  He pocketed much of the money and the country didn't get the benefit of it.  But the country has resources.  The question, of course, is ensuring the resources go toward the public interest, for public services through competently run ministries, and I think the chairman and his ministers are making good progress in creating a government that is competent.  We're very pleased with the partnership we have with the new government.

QUESTION:  There was an issue a while -- I'm sorry.  Go ahead.

QUESTION:  No, no.  Go ahead.

QUESTION:  There was an issue a while back of someone who was in the timber industry that was on a UN travel ban and he's in -- living in the United States, it's a Lebanese -- Nestor D (ph).

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  I can't, I couldn't -- I know there was a real problem with the cutting down of timber without -- in violation of Liberian law during the 1990s.  I can't tell you individual stories of people.

QUESTION:  How many people do you expect to participate on Friday -- Thursday and Friday?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  I actually saw a large number.  I was a little surprised, but I think there are 75 people going.

A PARTICIPANT:  In the conference itself, yes, and over 100 countries participating in the process.

QUESTION:  How many on the ministerial level?  Do you know?

A PARTICIPANT:  Ministerial level is, I think, about 60, 65.  We can get you the numbers.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Senior level Europeans are coming to this, which is a good sign.

QUESTION:  Are coming?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Yes.

QUESTION:  Ministerial level?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Yes.

A PARTICIPANT:  The French Foreign Minister will be coming.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Any other questions?

QUESTION:  Yeah.  To go back to the basic numbers, you said on reconstruction you're looking at, the budget is $487 million, and you're working --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Right.  That's not my figure.  That's the international framework.

QUESTION:  Right, that's -- for this conference?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  For two years.

QUESTION:  Yeah, right.  And you've already got $320 pre-pledged?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Right.

QUESTION:  Then the other number was $179 for humanitarian.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Right.

QUESTION:  So the goal of the conference is to achieve both of those numbers?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  That's correct.

QUESTION:  Okay.  Have you had anything on the humanitarian side pre-pledged?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Yeah.  Well, we've already spent $35 million on food aid, and we expect to spend -- and part of that is part of this because it hasn't been distributed yet.  The $35 million was over a two-year period for '03 and '04, and we're not finished '04 yet.

QUESTION:  That's food aid?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  That's food aid.  Then we have the Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance, we have PRM, the Population and Refugee Office in the State Department that's also made a -- that made a pledge.   But that's not part of the $200.  The $200 is only for reconstruction.

QUESTION:  So of the -- so in addition to the $200, the U.S. has already decided on giving $35 million to humanitarian that hasn't yet been spent and will be included towards that total of $179?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  That's correct, but not toward the reconstruction.

QUESTION:  Yeah.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  We need to separate the two, because you know what happens?  People make these generalized figures and you're not sure at a conference whether it's already been spent --

QUESTION:  Yeah.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  -- or whether it's going to be spent.  And then when the pledges don't come in, people get upset.  So we're taking a very conservative view of how much money we're pledging, none of which has been spent yet.

QUESTION:  Yeah.  And you didn't mention in the budget in the planning for the conference anything for the peacekeeping, and yet you're announcing --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  There is money in the supplemental budget of $245 million, which will be spent on peacekeeping operations, but that is not part of our pledge.

QUESTION:  And not --

QUESTION:  What's that for?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  It is part of our budget.

QUESTION:  And the DDR is under?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  That is part of the $200 million.

QUESTION:  Is part of the $200?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Yes.  That's a critical part as a matter of fact because if that doesn't work, the rest of this is not going to work.

QUESTION:  What about -- on the peacekeeping, who are you looking to provide the forces?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  The countries that have made a commitment are already publicly pledged.  It's -- was it 14,000 troops?  What's the total?

MINISTER NIMELY:  15,000.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  15,000.  And 10,000 have already arrived, so two-thirds of them are already there.

QUESTION:  And who, who are they?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Do you know the countries, Mr. --

MINISTER HERBERT:  (Inaudible) Africans, Indians, --

QUESTION:  I'm sorry?

MINISTER HERBERT:  Nigerians, Pakistanis.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Nigerians, Pakistanis.

MINISTER HERBERT:  Bangladesh.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Bangladesh.

MINISTER HERBERT:  Ethiopia.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Ethiopia.

QUESTION:  Will the U.S. still be supply-- originally, you know that you had the team on the ground that kind of went and helped with logistical --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  I don't know the answer to that.

MINISTER HERBERT:  And Irish, too, Irish and the Swedes.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  The Irish are sending -- I don't know, I can, we can check that.

The Swedes are sending troops, too?

MINISTER NIMELY:  The Chinese.

MINISTER HERBERT:  The Chinese are sending troops.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  The Chinese?

QUESTION:  What about the Fujians?

MINISTER HERBERT:  No, we don't know about that yet.  (Laughter.)

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Oh, the 245 is toward our pledge to the UN.  It's not for American troops, just so it's clear.  The 245 is to support the UN budget for peacekeeping operations.  This is the 15,000 troops.

QUESTION:  Can you check and see if the U.S. is going to --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  It's the assessed contribution, the 245. 

Yes.

QUESTION:  Can you check and see, or someone, if the U.S. is going to give any kind of command and control, any type of logistical support?

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Yeah, we'll check and we'll get back to you.

MINISTER HERBERT:  We have one U.S. officer who is going to be training the police.  Where is he from?  It's Officer Krueger.  He is from the--

QUESTION:  He's going to train all the police, or he's part of a team that --

MINISTER HERBERT:  He's going to -- he's part of the team, one of the commanders.

QUESTION:  That's a big job for one man.  (Laughter.)

MINISTER HERBERT:  He's one of the commanders.

QUESTION:  How many new policemen are you training?

MINISTER HERBERT:  I think we started with 400?

MR. WARTAY:  Yeah, initially.

MINISTER HERBERT:  Initial 400.

QUESTION:  Do you have a goal of how many you'd like to -- I mean, you're starting from scratch at this point?

MINISTER NIMELY:  Yes, starting from scratch.  And we at sometime in the future.

MR. WARTAY:   About a thousand more, a thousand.

QUESTION:  About a thousand more? 

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Any other questions?

QUESTION:  Well, I just wanted to do the broad question, you know, what is -- you say it's going to be for regional stability and you called this a failed state.  I mean, how -- has it gotten the attention that it deserves in this Administration given all the --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Well, the United States committed troops.  We sent them in.  We sent a flotilla off the coast.  That was critically important to stability at the early stages.  We helped recruit the countries that are contributing troops and we've made an enormous pledge.  It's for a portion of the total requirement, 40 percent.  I don't actually -- I cannot remember a country where we've pledged 40 percent of the total reconstruction budget.  So I think it's quite substantial.

We sent the Disaster Assistance Response Team in last fall.  So from the beginning of the crisis until the end of December we had a large team of AID officers in there.  The AID mission stayed through the whole thing with the U.S. Ambassador Ed Birgellis, the AID mission director.  I think it actually has made considerable contributions to the country, both in terms of our staff, in terms of our political focus and in terms of money pledged.

QUESTION:  I recall this was back during last fall when the trouble surrounding USAID, so I've just forgotten whether any Americans were killed or -- I know numbers were evacuated and some were killed, but they were local --

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  I don't think any Americans were killed, were they?

A PARTICIPANT:  No, I don't think so.

QUESTION:  Thank you very much.

QUESTION:  Thank you.

QUESTION:  Thanks.

QUESTION:  Good luck.

ADMINISTRATOR NATSIOS:  Thank you.