Assistant Secretary Frazer's Interview with Carol Castiel and Shaka Ssali of VOA

ANNOUNCER:
Press Conference USA, on VOA News Now. Newsmakers from America and around the world speak with journalists in an unscripted and unrehearsed discussion about the critical issues facing the United States and the world. Here's your host on this edition of Press Conference USA, Carol Castiel.

MS. CASTIEL:
Welcome to Press Conference USA, on VOA News Now. I'm your host, Carol Castiel. Joining me on the panel is Shaka Ssali, host and senior editor of VOA's Straight Talk Africa program.

Our guest on this edition of the program is the U.S. top diplomat for Africa. Ambassador Jendayi Frazer is the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs, a post she has held since August of this year. And we're coming to you from her office at the State Department.

Prior to becoming Assistant Secretary, Ambassador Frazer served for one year as the U.S. Ambassador to South Africa. She was Special Assistant to President Bush and Senior Director for African Affairs at the National Security Council from February 2001 until her swearing in as Ambassador in June 2004. Ambassador Frazer holds a Ph.D. in political science from Stanford University. We'll be talking to her about U.S. policy towards Sub‑Saharan Africa and how the U.S. is dealing with some of the most challenging issues facing the region.

Ambassador Frazer, welcome to the program.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Thank you.

MS. CASTIEL:
Thanks so much for hosting us here in your office as well. Let me begin with some good news, Ambassador Frazer; that's of course Liberia, the first female president, President Ellen Johnson‑Sirleaf. Let me ask you to comment on her victory, what it means for the continent, and what specific steps the United States is taking to bolster her government.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Well, it is indeed exciting for Africa to have its first woman president elected. It's an important story for Liberia as a whole, because the election represents the first time in its history that it had an open, free and fair, and transparent election. And it was a vote of the Liberian people for peace. So we think it is quite exciting. And it will help to stabilize the Mano River states. So it has an impact on the region, on the continent as a whole, and certainly domestically for the Liberian people.

The United States has been supporting this process throughout. We were part of the Liberia Contact Group, which was mediated by the President of Ghana. We have also been contributing significant development assistance to Liberia, over a billion dollars over the last two years. And we will continue to support the new president‑elect and her government, to try to build and reconstruct Liberia, its economy, its society. There are many internally displaced persons. We will try to help get them resettled in their home villages, as well as to try to help build the infrastructure and to ensure good governance and economic management.

MS. CASTIEL:
Before I turn to Shaka Ssali, my colleague, I would like to ask you about Ethiopia, certainly a contrast to what happened in Liberia, at least from the perception of the opposition. In the aftermath of the May elections, there was a lot of violence. The opposition disputed the results. And the government of Prime Minister Meles Zenawi, someone who the United States has hailed as one of the new democrats of Africa, has not really acted in a democratic manner, turning against the protestors. What is the U.S. stance on the election, on its legitimacy, and the subsequent crackdown by the government?

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Well, first, let me just say that President Bush has never hailed any new democrats in Africa. That was actually the policy of the previous administration. What we have looked at is African heads of state and strong governments, but we have never hailed any sort of leaders of the continent. We have really focused our policy on our interests and our strategic relationships with particular countries.

That said, we felt that this election was an important election in Ethiopia's history and that the opposition won overwhelmingly in Addis Ababa, the capital city, and it is an opportunity for the opposition to take significant seats in the parliament. And part of democracy is for opposition and minorities to exercise their rights from within government as well as without.

As you said, the crackdown was extremely disappointing. And I believe that this is a broader point for the progress of democracy on the continent, in which you need governments to be both accountable, to allow for free and fair elections, to create a level playing field, and to allow for freedom of assembly, freedom of expression. But you also need oppositions to act responsibly as well; responsibly in terms of respecting the rule of law when they are demonstrating. There were some demonstrators who were pelting the police in Ethiopia with stones. Well, this is not acceptable, but freedom of assembly, freedom of expression, clearly.

We have been putting pressure on Prime Minister Meles to release the detainees from jail, to also provide for speedy trials. We have put quite significant pressure on him, both privately and publicly, to respect the rule of law and, again, as I said, to have speedy trials for those who are in detention. And we have made it very clear that the police firing on demonstrators is unacceptable. It is an unacceptable use of force.

And so it is quite disappointing in the aftermath of the election, but the election itself I think created significant results, with the opposition winning many seats in parliament. And it would be good, frankly, for the opposition to take up their seats and to continue to press for democracy both on the streets of Addis but also in the parliament.

MS. CASTIEL:
Let me turn to Shaka Ssali for a question.

MR. SSALI:
Ambassador Jendayi Frazer, how do you expect members of the opposition in Ethiopia to exercise their constitutional rights, namely, those of freedom of assembly, freedom of expression? You have restrictions, where the government is not only using rubber bullets, but we are talking about live bullets. They have not used it once; they have used it twice.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
As I said, I think that the United States is putting significant pressure on the government to allow a secure environment for freedom of assembly. That is extremely important. And we have put pressure on the government to release the opposition leaders as well as the general public that they have detained, the students and others who demonstrated, to release them from prison or to have speedy trials.

It is also important for the opposition to take some responsibility for the incidents which took place, in that, one, the opposition is a coalition opposition. There are those who have said they were elected and they are going to take their seats in parliament. But it is also important, as I said, for the opposition not to sort of push demonstrators to pick up stones and rocks and to pelt the police and to overrun the police and to undermine the sanctity of property and respect of the laws. You have to have credible and responsible opposition leaders as well as those sitting in government. And so there is plenty of blame all around in the case of Ethiopia, but certainly the United States holds the government more accountable because it is a government.

MS. CASTIEL:
Just a quick question before I let Shaka follow up. You say pressure. What specific kind of pressure? Is it rhetorical or economic?

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Well, the United States doesn't provide any budget support to the Government of Ethiopia. All of our assistance to Ethiopia is to NGO's. It's to the people of Ethiopia. So it is not very viable for the United States to somehow provide economic pressure on the government. But certainly our Charge, Vicky Huddleston, has spoken often to Prime Minister Meles and to his government, trying to join with other governments in Addis to bring pressure to bear on him.

We have had discussions with him at the UN General Assembly. Myself and Under Secretary Burns and others have spoken to him. And we will continue to have dialogue with the government and talk about our expectations of that government's behavior. But again, as I say, it is important for the progress of democracy for both the government and the opposition to act responsibly.

MR. SSALI:
There is a perception that you are dealing with people who talk the talk but really cannot walk the walk. Do you have any specific benchmarks that, for example, what the government of Meles Zenawi must meet, must accomplish, in order for you to be satisfied that they are responding appropriately?

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Yes, I think that we do have specific benchmarks. For instance, we have pressured him to release leaders of the opposition. We have had an opportunity to speak to the families of those opposition. We have pressured him and his government to provide for speedy trials. For others, we have pressured them to take particular reforms within the legislature on particular electoral laws. And so, yes, we do have specific benchmarks that we are placing on the government.

And it is a process of continuing to dialogue with them. As I say, we don't provide budget support. There are other governments around the world that do provide budget support and can bring that to bear on the Government of Ethiopia, but the United States doesn't do that.

MR. SSALI:
Earlier you mentioned something to do with the leveling of the political playing field. Madam Ambassador, we are talking about a situation, frankly, where you cannot probably even begin talking about leveling the field, because the field is virtually controlled by one party. You are talking about somebody who controls the electoral commission, controls the judiciary, pretty much controls everything. How do we talk about leveling the playing field when someone, frankly, controls the field, the ball, the referee, the linesmen, and the spectators?

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Well, Shaka, what I would say to that is, then, why did the opposition win overwhelmingly in the city of Addis Ababa? The opposition did win seats.

MR. SSALI:
They did.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
So they were able to play on the field somehow. They won significant seats within the parliament. And I think that that is important to emphasize as well, that the opposition did extremely well.

MR. SSALI:
There is a saying that, in urban areas, usually you have people who are socially conscious, relatively better educated, well informed, and also let's not forget that that is where most of the international observers and monitors are usually found. Well, how do you expect this situation to replicate itself in the rural areas, where the majority of the people live?

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Well, if you say that in the urban areas you have a particular type of voter, it could also be said that in a rural area you have a very different type of voter. And so it is not at all clear that the voters in a rural area, who they would actually elect. So I think that the credibility of this election is really being contested because of the aftermath more so than the process itself.

I think certainly we need to hold governments accountable for leveling that playing field, to allow opposition to operate, to operate throughout the country. The opposition needs to go throughout the country and mobilize themselves. Some oppositions are more funded from constituents outside of the country than they are from within the country. So it's a very complex situation in Ethiopia and, as I said, there is plenty of blame across the board.

There are different types of opposition. There are some members of the opposition who are not at all interested in a democratic election in Ethiopia; they are interested in taking back Eritrea. That's a fact. Some of them have a notion of the greater Ethiopia, the glory of the past. And that would be problematic.

There are others who want to express themselves, represent their constituency and be part of this government. They have a legitimate right and a legitimate interest. And so my point is simply that the United States certainly holds responsible Prime Minister Meles for the aftermath of that election. But for democracy across the board in Africa to really progress, we need the opposition also to be real democrats.

And in the case of Ethiopia, that is a coalition opposition, and you have real democrats within it. And you have there others who simply want to get rid of Meles and take back Eritrea and other interests, which may not be very helpful to us. So we will continue to put pressure on Prime Minister Meles to free those who are detained. But we also continue to put pressure on the opposition to take up their seats in government and work from both within and without the government to make change that is to the benefit of all Ethiopians.

MS. CASTIEL:
You are listening to Press Conference USA on VOA NewsNow. Our guest is Ambassador Jendayi Frazer, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Africa. I'm Carol Castiel, along with Shaka Ssali, host and senior editor of VOA's Straight Talk Africa program.

Ambassador Frazer, I would like to turn now to U.S. policy toward Sudan. The United States helped to broker a very successful comprehensive peace accord between the North and the South. We have a national unity government since July. However, there are problems, of course, in the western region of Darfur. I would like to know your sense of the situation on the ground now as it stands and what specific steps the United States is taking vis‑à‑vis the government and the rebels to curb the violence and to broker a political solution.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Thank you. As you say, there are problems in Sudan, throughout Sudan, but particularly the crisis in Darfur is gaining significant attention from the U.S. Government currently. I, myself, have been to Sudan three times in the last month. Deputy Secretary Zoellick has been there four times over the past year. Our Secretary of State has also been there this year. And so it is getting significant attention from President Bush and his administration.

I wasn't there at the worst moments of the crisis in Darfur, which were more than a year ago. Since the African Union force has been deployed ‑‑ the United States helped airlift Nigerians and Rwandans, and there are about 7,000 troops from the African Union mission in Darfur ‑‑ things have stabilized somewhat. We have seen a recent upsurge in violence. That upsurge is associated with banditry. It is associated with the rebel groups trying to fight their way into the peace talks. And it is also associated clearly with the government continuing to provide support for the Janjawid militia against civilians throughout Darfur.

So, again, there is blame across all parties in Darfur, in terms of the upsurge of violence, which violates the ceasefire agreements that they all committed to in Abuja. And so we are trying to put pressure on all the parties to stop the violence. We are trying to continue to build the capacity of the African Union, to observe and to protect civilians.

And ultimately, the answer to Darfur is a political settlement, which the talks, the seventh round of talks, are being held in Abuja, hosted by the African Union, with Dr. Salim‑Salim as the mediator. And the United States has observers at those talks, trying to support and assist, to bring the government of national unity and the rebels, the SLM and the Justice and Equality Movement, together so that they can negotiate a final political settlement.

MS. CASTIEL:
Do you see some movement on either side? Because I know that there has been really a stalemate.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
There has been movement. In the sixth round, we couldn't get the Sudan Liberation Movement/Army, the SLM/A. They had two factions, Mini Minawi and Abdul Wahid Nur. Now, both of them are at Abuja. The United States, Chad, Libya, Eritrea, and the AU were pressuring these two rebel leaders to come together, to negotiate from a common position, and they are doing that with the Justice and Equality Movement.

So, yes, we do see, on the one side, the rebels negotiating as a joint team, as well as the SPLM and United Congress Party, in terms of the government of national unity also negotiating as a unified team. And so this is important progress for the possibility of reaching an agreement sometime by the end of the year. They have significant work to do. They are trying to reach an agreement on power sharing, wealth sharing, and the security arrangements. So there is much work to be done. But certainly they are sitting at Abuja now, and we have a great expectation that the seventh round of talks will have some success.

MS. CASTIEL:
Let me turn to Shaka Ssali for a question.

MR. SSALI:
To paraphrase what Dr. Condoleezza Rice said sometime, I believe, earlier this year. She observed that the United States will stand on the side of those people who are struggling for democracy and freedom. You have definitely done that, at least in the case of Ukraine, Georgia and, to a certain degree, Zimbabwe. What about Uganda, what do you have to say about Uganda?

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Well, certainly in Uganda, there is backsliding, I would say, in terms of democratic progress. We see this in two ways. First, the third term issue. Now, we are quite disappointed that President Museveni has decided to go for a third term. And we have expressed that to him, and Secretary Rice has had an opportunity to talk to him directly about this.

That said, he changed the rules of the game constitutionally, and governments have the right to do that. We see it as problematic, because it reflects the failure to groom new leadership. It certainly leads many to have the notion of life presidents again. So it is a disappointment. But it is not necessarily undermining the rule of law in Uganda, as such, because he did do it through the rule of law.

The other problem where we see some backsliding is obviously the case of Dr. Besigye, who has come back. He was the main opponent to President Museveni in the last national election. He continues to be a credible opposition leader. And now he is sitting in jail with charges against him of treason, of arms/weapons possession, and of rape.

MR. SSALI:
And a rape of 1997.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Yes. So this is quite problematic, because the appearance is obviously that the Uganda Government is jailing and undermining the main opposition to President Museveni. And we have made this very clear, that it looks very political, that it seems like there is double jeopardy involved, charging him in both a civilian court and in a military court, and that something needs to be done to change this backsliding.

Uganda actually qualified for the Millennium Challenge Corporation, on the indicators. But the trend line was negative and so they weren't accepted into the program in the last round of the board making a decision. This is a huge blow to the economy of Uganda, but it is absolutely based on what we see as very negative dynamics taking place domestically in Uganda right now.

MR. SSALI:
You know as well as I do, Ambassador Frazer, that there are some who have been saying that the manner in which you promote U.S. foreign policy towards Africa, and indeed around the world, that you apply double standards. I realize that you faced the issue Monday at the Press Club regarding Zimbabwe.

Now, as far as Uganda is concerned, you said President Yoweri Museveni changed the rules of the game constitutionally. But surely so has President Robert Mugabe. So how come Robert Mugabe somehow draws one reaction and President Museveni draws another? Because, let's face it, there are reports, and they can be substantiated, that in fact part of the arrangement of changing the rules of the game is something that one could characterize as corruption. Because members of parliament were in fact given money by the chief executive. This is a fact.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
I think it really is ignoring the facts on the ground to equate Zimbabwe with Uganda. In the case of Zimbabwe, there were militias tied to the ZANU Party that were beating opposition members and killing opposition members in 2003 during that election, during the first election.

The government in Zimbabwe just recently destroyed the homes of most of the citizens in Harare, put them out on the street during the dead of winter. The type of human rights violations against the general public, the types of abuses that have taken place in Zimbabwe, the significant harassment of the media in Zimbabwe and of the opposition in Zimbabwe is on a scale that has not been seen in Uganda. The destruction of the economy in Zimbabwe, the stealing of land in Zimbabwe, is something entirely different than Uganda.

So to equate the two is completely ignoring the facts. That is not to say that there aren't significant problems that we are seeing unfolding in Uganda. I have acknowledged that. But Uganda and Zimbabwe are totally on a different order entirely.

MR. SSALI:
It is very interesting that you say that. I can see, frankly, that there are various similarities. I could quote you some specific instances. For example, you talked about the militia. There is a gentleman called Major Roland Kakooza Mutale, of the Kalangala Group, a militia in fact sponsored by the statehouse. This is a man who is supposed to be a senior political advisor to the President of Uganda. This is a man, it is on record, and you can go to the Hanfords [?], you can look at the media of 2001 during the last elections, he was harassing, intimidating, beating the people. There are some people, in fact, who were killed.

I can also talk about the draconian measures which have been taken as far as the media is concerned with regards to the case that you earlier touched on, of Kizza Besigye. No media is supposed to mention his name; something, frankly, that seems to be lifted out of apartheid South Africa. You have Mumbas [?], which are made in South Africa unfortunately, which are now in Kampala. You have a lot of troops, soldiers, who are dressed in police uniforms; people are getting the same as the people are getting in Harare. The only difference, frankly, here is the land issue. The land issue, yes. But when it comes to politics, I don't see, frankly, significant differences.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Well, Shaka, don't put me in a position where I have to try to justify what is taking place in Uganda. But there are not 2 million to 3 million Ugandan citizens that are refugees out of Uganda, in Kenya and in neighboring countries, as you see in Zimbabwe. There is a marked difference in the type of political repression that is taking place in Zimbabwe than in Uganda. That is not to say that the political space is not shrinking in Uganda. That certainly is the case. So the trend line is quite negative.

And indeed, if we don't watch it, it could lead to what we are seeing in Zimbabwe. But we are not there. There is absolutely no comparison between what you see in Zimbabwe over the last five or six years and what you see in Uganda. It is simply not the same case at all.

MR. SSALI:
What about the 1.6, almost 2, million human beings in the northern part of Uganda who are internally displaced, who are refugees in their own country?

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
They are being terrorized by the Lord’s Resistance Army under Kony. And we all, internationally, need to do something about the LRA and Kony. Now, you might say that President Museveni's policies have not been effective to try to address the problem of the LRA. But the LRA are not an extension of the government arm. They are not an extension of a Ugandan party. It is an illegal terrorist‑type organization that is terrorizing the people of Uganda in the north.

MS. CASTIEL:
Ambassador Frazer, I would like to turn your attention now to counterterrorism activities on the continent. Obviously the war on terror is the highest priority for the U.S. Government in terms of our strategic interests and security. I'm wondering how concerned you are about the possibility that radical Islamist groups are gaining a foothold in the continent, particularly in failing states, Somalia, and perhaps in some of the other states in East Africa, where conflict ensues. What is your concern, and what specifically is the United States doing to combat the threat?

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
We are especially concerned about the terrorist threat, obviously globally, and no country is immune to this threat, no place anywhere in the world. Whether you have developed states or failing states, the threat is there for all of us.

The hotspots in Africa are East Africa, as you said, Somalia certainly being a hotbed of potential terrorist networks growing, as well as the Sahel region. The ungoverned spaces across the continent are especially worrying.

We are working in two ways. We have an East Africa Counterterrorism Initiative and a Trans‑Saharan Counterterrorism Initiative. These initiatives try to focus U.S. Government resources, resources in terms of intelligence sharing or information sharing, in terms of police training, outreach, public diplomacy, socioeconomic development, outreach to youth, as well as training military and police forces for border control, border operations, immigration control, airport security. So we have broad‑based, multifaceted programs to try to address it and also to try to bring the countries in each region together to try to cooperate against these terrorist networks.

So, yes, there is a threat in Africa, as elsewhere. And we certainly do have programs up and running. The programs are focused on building the capacity of African governments to counter these networks and this threat and to cooperate with each other in trying to deal with the transnational nature of the networks.

MS. CASTIEL:
Ambassador Frazer, I would also like to get your sense of some good news stories on the continent. We started with Liberia, went through some trouble spots. Where on the continent do you see some really good news, both politically and economically?

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Well, I think the continent as a whole, the trend lines are quite positive. You can look at the Congo right now, where a war in 2001 that included Rwanda, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Angola, many different countries were involved in an interstate war essentially in the Congo. Well, that has come to an end. You still have problems with FDLR militia groups, sort of negative forces as they're characterized, in Eastern Congo. So there is still work to be done. But the type of crisis that you had in the Great Lakes region in 2001 has come to an end.

In Angola, you had a civil war in 2001, with Savimbi and UNITA. Now UNITA is a legitimate opposition within Angola. That's important.

In Sierra Leone in 2001, you had the Revolutionary United Front, the RUF rebels, chopping off arms and legs, controlling the diamond areas in Sierra Leone. That was has come to an end.

The 22‑year war in Sudan between the North and the South, that killed over 2 million people, has come to an end.

And so I think, as a whole, the trend lines are very, very positive in Africa. We have to prevent new wars from breaking out. But certainly I think we are at a moment in time in which we can end all of Africa's wars. So I think that is very positive.

MR. SSALI:
Talking about that, one of the countries that is obviously doing the right thing is a country that both of us love, which is Kenya. What are you doing in order to make sure that the democratic gains that have been made can be consolidated? Because really this is a country that has had a free and fair referendum recently, a president also who conceded defeat and accepted the voice of the people having spoken, and also of course, as you remember, about three years ago they had one of the freest and one of the fairest, most transparent, democratic elections.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Yes, I agree with you 100 percent. The trend line in Kenya is quite positive, although you can always cherry pick problems. And obviously the issue of corruption continues to be a major one in President Kibaki's government. But, nevertheless, the United States continues to engage with Kenya. Certainly one of our efforts towards economic growth and development is to foster private sector‑led growth, to try to support freer and more open trade, to assist African economies to grow.

And this is I think particularly important for Kenya, because Kenya has the infrastructure in place. It has, as you say, a more stable political system. It's a three‑year political system since the opposition won. And they are clearly respecting the rule of law by accepting the results of the referendum. So the United States will try to get more investment into Kenya. We will try, through our African Growth and Opportunity Act, to open our markets to Kenyan goods. There are 6,400 tariff lines. There are many entrepreneurs in Kenya who can take advantage of that AGOA legislation to export to the United States market.

We, as you know, are relieving our debt for the HIPC, the Highly Indebted Poor Countries. So there are many ways in which Kenya can benefit.

One area that I would like to particularly focus on is the upcoming round in Hong Kong of the World Trade Organization. The United States has put a proposal on the table to end all agricultural subsidies, all of them. This stands to benefit Africa significantly. And we would need the Kenya trade minister ‑‑ well, now they don't have a cabinet ‑‑

(Laughter.)

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
We will need a new Kenyan trade minister to engage in the WTO round, to try to make progress in these agricultural subsidies, which would help Kenya as well as all of Africa. Kenya exports flowers, for example, and other products, tea, coffee, et cetera. It would really benefit from the ending of ag subsidies.

MR. SSALI:
Are they going to make the MCA list?

MS. CASTIEL:
That's the Millennium Challenge Account.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Well, as you know, the Millennium Challenge Account has the criteria of ruling justly, investing in health and education, and economic freedom and entrepreneurship. One of the hard measures is corruption. And very likely Kenya would not make it on the corruption indicator currently. And so there is still more work to be done. But we are looking forward to seeing President Kibaki’s new cabinet, and hope that he will have members in his cabinet that will respect the rule of law and that will have transparency and be free of corruption.

MS. CASTIEL:
Ambassador Jendayi Frazer is the U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs. Ambassador Frazer, thank you very much for speaking with us and sharing your very perceptive insights.

AMBASSADOR FRAZER:
Thank you very much, Carol. I appreciate it.

MS. CASTIEL:
Press Conference USA, on VOA NewsNow, was produced in Washington, with technical assistance from Gary Jafee. Joining me on the panel was Shaka Ssali, host and senior editor of VOA's Straight Talk Africa program. I'm Carol Castiel. Join me again next week for another Press Conference USA on VOA NewsNow.
(End of program.)