Interview With Nikos Konstandaras of Kathimerini (Greece)

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: I think that relations between Greece and the United States are significantly strengthened, much improved. Certainly the best in any time in my memory. We have strategic incentives between the two governments, in NATO, in what has to be done in the Balkans -- which is a region of great importance to Greece. We work very closely together on EU issues that affect the United States. There’s been a very good personal relationship between the Greek leadership and the United States. We listen to the Greek government. Both the prime minister is well known to us and foreign minister Molyviatis, who is a very experienced, skilful diplomat, and so I think we are in an excellent period in our relations.

QUESTION: On this end, people think things could be better. Athens and Washington see eye to eye on many things... closer EU -turkey ties, stabilizing force in the Balkans. There’s as sense here that Athens has not been getting much in return for this. Would you agree with that?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: No, I don’t agree. I think that any relationship, of course, has to be a two-way street and I think the Greek people and the Greek government should expect the United States to be responsive to Greek needs, and I think that we have been. We’ve been very supportive, for instance, over the last six or seven years, of the new Greek influence in the Balkans. We’ve been very supportive of Greek investments, of Greek trade, of the Greek diplomatic role there. The United States has seen Greece as a stabilizing role there, has advised the Balkan countries that Greece can be a friend. I think we’ve been very helpful to Greece in that respect.

We certainly were supportive of the Olympic Games, both our companies and our government gave enormous support and what a great success the Olympic Games were. So, I don’t agree. No two countries are going to agree on everything. There will be times when we have rows. That’s normal in any relationship. That happens with us with all of our friends and partners. But I actually think there’s probably a greater degree of strategic coincidence and cooperation now than there was, for instance when I was there as ambassador. I can probably think things are better and more trusting. And I am very happy about that.

QUESTION: But if we look at the issues that are outstanding, one by one, Greece has supported Turkey very much in its moves toward closer ties with Europe. On the other hand, the air and sea violations by Turkish forces have continued. We also haven’t seen any progress on the issue of the Halki Seminary or in the way Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomaios is treated. It's as if Greece supports Turkey whereas Turkey sticks to an unbending position. Can Washington affect Ankara to the effect that Turkey adopts a softer relationship with Greece?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: Some of these issues have to be discussed and negotiated between Greece and Turkey. The United States agrees with Greece that the Halki Seminary should be reopened. We agree that the necessary support should be given to his All Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew. We certainly want to see both countries look at their problems. So I don’t think there’s a lack of support from the United States. I think these are difficult issues. And they’ve existed, some of them, for 30, 40 years. I think Greeks can be assured the United States wants to see a lessening of tensions between Greece and Turkey. There has been an historic rapprochement between Greece and Turkey. Things are vastly improved for what they were, say, in 1997 or 1998. On the issue of the Church in Istanbul and on Halki we have a very clear opinion. We have called for the Halki Seminary to be reopened. We have called for the rights of the Phanar, the Patriarchate, to be respected.

QUESTION: On the Macedonia issue, which is fresh...

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: Yes, I know…what I said…I saw the newspaper articles extracted a lot of commentary.

QUESTION: There was a kind of change in the nuance of what you said, but the meaning was clear, that the United States would object to Greece objecting to a country called Macedonia joining NATO. I am sure you are aware that this is a very passionate issue in Greece and Greece has these diplomatic tools that it can use. How could anyone suggest that it not use diplomatic tools at its disposal?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: I think that, unfortunately some of the Greek newspapers misquoted what I said and changed the meaning of what I said. I never said that it would be “shameful.” I never said anything of the sort. I was talking to a Macedonian reporter, and she simply asked me what would happen if Greece and Macedonia were unable to work out their problems and Macedonia’s entry was blocked. And I think it’s clear that the Greek government does not want to block Macedonia’s entry into NATO or the European Union. The argument is not over the entry in NATO or the European Union; the argument is over the name of the country.

And when I said it would be a “shame,” I meant it would be a shame if these problems were not resolved at some point in the future. We believe they can be resolved. Both sides are responsible for resolving them. The United States is neutral in this regard. We have told both the Macedonians and the Greeks that we think the problem should be worked out through the UN special negotiator, Ambassador Nimetz, and we don’t have any influence over his proposals. We have not sought any influence over his proposals. He writes his own proposals. They are not manufactured in Washington, D.C. and by our government. We take no position as to which is the right outcome. We think Greece and Macedonia can determine that.

QUESTION: Well, you did take a position. And the fact that President Bush was very quick after his reelection to recognize our neighbor as the Republic of Macedonia made very clear where the United States stands on the issue. I wonder if you have found that to be an obstacle in your dealings with Athens and Skopje?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS:  No, I don’t think so. That was a national decision that the United States took and we have to stand by that decision, obviously. What I was referring to was the UN negotiation, that Ambassador Nimetz has been running for a number of years. In that particular process, where Greece and Macedonia are involved together in these discussions with Ambassador Nimetz, it is there that we have said we don’t believe it is appropriate for the United States to prescribe what we think is the right outcome. We think that both sides should work with Ambassador Nimetz and try to have a compromise solution. I think we’ve been neutral in that respect. I think we should be neutral. And I’m sorry that some of the Greek newspapers did not translate my words in the correct way.

QUESTION: There was also some tension over the last couple of weeks over statements made at the OSCE by your country’s ambassador, regarding Greece’s treatment of what the envoy termed minorities in Greece. Athens protested to Ambassador Ries here. Is it now U.S. policy to recognize an “Albanian minority” in Greece, as well as the others mentioned?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: There’s really no major change in U.S. policy. We’ve had a longstanding practice of recognizing that there are minorities in Greece. This is nothing new. I remember the previous Greek government did not appreciate this fact. We simply have to stick to our own opinion. But it’s not a crisis in our relationship. It should not be a crisis. There are more important issues that we should be discussing.

QUESTION: You mentioned the word “crisis.”

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: I would not consider this to be a crisis. It may be a difference of opinion but that’s all it is and we simply -- we certainly, on so many more issues strategically between our two countries…there are so many good ties that underlie U.S.-Greece relations.

QUESTION: Greece has been on the UN Security Council this year. How has cooperation between Greece and the United States been on that level?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: I think the cooperation has been very good. We consult very frequently in New York, as well as between Athens and Washington. As you know, we have similar views on many important world issues. We certainly appreciate Greece’s support for the United States, and the U.S. support for Greece, on issues concerning terrorism, for instance. We have felt that support in our country. I can tell you we have felt that in NATO as well.

QUESTION: On a bilateral level?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: I think I can say that when Prime Minister Karamanlis came to Washington in May he and President Bush had an excellent meeting.  And I think bilateral relations between the two governments have not been this good for a long, long time. And I think that’s going to continue, because there’s confidence; there’s personal confidence among the leaders.

QUESTION: On the Balkans. Does the U.S. have a specific proposal on what the final status for Kosovo may look like?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: Well, we don’t have a specific proposal, but we are in favor of negotiations starting soon, led by the United Nations. We simply cannot support a continuation of the status quo in Kosovo. People there are -- it’s six and half years beyond the war. They have to know what their future is, they have to know what country they will be living in. So it’s high time that we had these negotiations. We’ll be appointing our own American envoy to support the UN negotiations.

I was just in Kosovo last week and I met with the Albanian leadership. I must say that we hope they will be united in these discussions and they will present one viewpoint. I also met with the Kosovar Serb community and it’s unfortunate that they have not yet been allowed to participate in the elections. They have not been allowed to sit in the national assembly. That’s because the government in Belgrade has not wanted them to do that. And we think that’s a mistake. We think the Serb leadership in Kosovo should be allowed to be much more active and should be able to find its own voice in these negotiations.

I also went to Belgrade and spoke with President Tadic and Prime Minister Kostunica. And I told them that it was going to be very important that Serbia come to these negotiations with an open mind and that there was a possibility of peaceful negotiations that would lead to just results for the people of Kosovo. I think these will be tough negotiations, they will be very difficult negotiations and it’s important that the United Nations lead them, and also important that the United States and Europe be supportive of them. It is going to be a very active period ahead.

QUESTION: Are you working with Serbia as well, moving them closer toward NATO and so on?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: Yes, we’re trying hard to work with the Serbs. I have been to Belgrade twice in the last four months to talk to the Serb leadership. One of the issues that we’ve been asking the Serb leadership to move on with is the issue of the war criminals. Ten years after the Srebrenica massacre and still Mladic is at large. I told Prime Minister Kostunica that the United States could not and would not support Serbia for Partnership for Peace until Mladic is sent to The Hague and put on trial for war crimes. The same is true of  Karadzic, the spiritual father of the Bosnian Serbs. It’s really quite outrageous that both of them are still at large.

QUESTION: On Cyprus, do you have any ideas on how to get the process moving again?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: Well, we wish we did. You know, it’s a shame that the opportunity was not taken advantage of last year with the Annan Plan. We would just hope that continued progress will be made. We are actively engaged through our ambassador in Nicosia. We have very close contacts with Greece on the Cyprus issue as well.

QUESTION: On a more personal level, if I may. There were times in Athens when you had to go into high diplomatic gear: the war in Kosovo, the capture of Kurdish rebel leader Abdullah Ocalan, and the protests at the visit by President Bill Clinton. Did you find that this was of any benefit to you in your later career - in Brussels and now in Washington?

UNDER SECRETARY BURNS: (Laughter). Let me say, first, as my family and I look back upon our time in Greece, we have nearly universal positive memories, because we have retained a lot of affection for the country and for its people. And we have made so many friends, who continue to be friends to this day. On my name day, last December 6, I can’t tell you how many e-mails and telephone calls I had from Greek friends. We’re in touch with lots of Greek friends and I’m in touch with lots of Greek politicians as well. So those years…there were some tough times during those years. You mentioned three of those incidents. I suppose they did make me a better diplomat, as they taught me how to operate at a time of crisis, they taught me how to operate at a time of public criticism.

I’m convinced we did the right thing in the Kosovo war. We stopped the massacre of Albanians by the Serbs. I’m convinced we did the right thing there. The Ocalan affair -- Ocalan is a terrorist. He deserves to stand trial for terrorist crimes. But I think that for the most part, what we were able to do when I was ambassador -- and I know Ambassador Ries is trying very hard and successfully to do -- is build a more modern relationship between Greece and the U.S.  And I think we’ve done it. We've got much closer economic, trade and investment ties now than we had before. We have better cooperation on counterterrorism because of the Olympic Games. Greece has made significant inroads into terrorism itself, with the arrest of the November 17 terrorists. And so I’m very, very pleased for having had the experience of being ambassador there and those difficult experiences tested all of us and they certainly improved my own skills. But I have good memories.