Interview on Egyptian Television by Muhammad Setouhi

QUESTION: Let's start with the Arab summit. Four ministers signed a document -- only four of them -- in the region. What do you think about this document?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, first of all, thank you very much for giving me the chance to be with you again.

We are very pleased with the document. We think it's a document that speaks clearly about the rights of individuals, about the rights of people in society, about the need for a free economy, of the need for more education, the rights of women. And so we believe that the document that came out of the Arab summit is an important document.

I would say to your viewers it really is based on some of the work that was done at the Alexandria Library Conference and the very important statement that President Mubarak made, both before the conference and also when he met the President in Crawford, Texas. So we think this is something very important and very much worth building on.

QUESTION: Would you build on this one in your initiative at the G-8 Summit?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, yes, sir. I think that the idea that the United States and the G-8 countries should position themselves to support reform in the Middle East is an important one. And we're talking now about the broader Middle East and North Africa, and we believe that statements like the Arab League Summit, statements like the one that came out of the Alexandria Library, Aqaba, Sanaa -- all of those should be welcomed. And so these aren't our ideas. These are ideas from the region, and we would simply like to be in a position to support those reforms and support that call for democracy.

QUESTION: This is now the Broader Middle East Initiative?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Yes, sir.

QUESTION: As opposed to the Greater Middle East Initiative before. Is it only a change of name or something else?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: You know, I think the truth is, I don't think the words are so important. One of the things that I tried to do when I visited Egypt and some of the other Arab countries earlier this year was to listen carefully to what people were saying. What were they saying? They were saying, please, don't impose any initiatives on us; recognize that all the countries in the region are different; recognize that we will all do this in our own way and be patient.

And I think it's fair to say that our President and our other leaders have taken exactly that advice. I mean, if you see what it is we've said, we've said all the countries in the region are unique and that this kind of reform couldn't possibly be imposed from out outside; it must come from the region; and that we are a patient people. Look at all the time we have worked to try to perfect our democracy, and there is a lot more to go yet. And so we're patient people, we're optimistic people, and we believe that the conversation for reform in the Middle East is a key one and we want to be in support of it.

QUESTION: What Egypt has been saying for a while is that the Arab world should be dealt with as such. We are not just -- we couldn't be dissolved in a different identity, like a Greater Middle East or a Broader Middle East. What's your take on that?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, first of all, I think that it's very important that Egypt have its say here and that it is not the objective in any way, shape or form to try to disrupt the Arab world or divide the Arab world or lessen the importance of institutions in the Arab world. But what we are saying is that across the region, across the broader Middle East and North Africa, if I can use that phrase, there's clearly a conversation for reform that is taking place. Look at the statements of the Arab Business Council. Again, I refer to the wonderful statement in the Alexandria Library.

So the question that comes to us is how should we best support that reform, and that's our objective. And so it is not to take away from anything; it's to, in fact, encourage the conversation that's going on. And I know when I spoke to Foreign Minister Maher when I was in Egypt, we had this conversation, and I said to him, "Look, we want every country to succeed. We want it to succeed in the way that it should succeed. But a country like Pakistan, a country like Afghanistan, they want to succeed as well. And so if the conversation for reform is going on there, we ought to support it there as well."

QUESTION: So we include other countries like Pakistan in these countries in the Middle East initiative, is what you're saying?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: I think it's up to the countries. I mean, again, it's maybe a question of language here. We want to support reformers, and if those reformers exist in North Africa, we want to support them there. And if they exist in Egypt, as they do in government and in civil society, in Morocco, in Bahrain, in Jordan, in Yemen, we want to support them. And I would say, sir, if those kinds of people exist, and I know that they do, in Pakistan government and civil society, certainly Afghanistan, where people have thrown off the rule of dictatorship, then we ought to support that as well.

QUESTION: People there have another problem with this initiative, which is that it should be linked to progress in the Middle East peace process. Do you agree?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: If there was more progress on the Middle East peace process, this would be easier to do. We're not naïve people. But what we have tried to say in reverse, sir, is that because there perhaps might not be all the progress we want in the Middle East today, it doesn't mean that we should try to hold back support for reform.

And so President Bush has talked about a two-state solution. He's the first American President to come out and support a Palestinian state. We have the roadmap and the Quartet. And, like you, I'd like to see more progress. I'd like to see faster progress. But because we are maybe not moving as quickly as we should in one area, as I say, doesn't mean we should hold up our support for reform.

QUESTION: Okay. What do you intend to present to the G-8 Summit now? We all know there are many (inaudible) about democracy, human rights, women's rights and so on. But to be more specific, what difference, what's going to (inaudible) present at this summit?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, obviously, we'll have to wait and see what the summit does itself, but let me give you a preview. For example, when we say that we'd like to support democracy, we want to offer the possibilities. For example, many people would like support in running free and more transparent elections. Perhaps there are political parties in countries that would like to learn how to operate inside a democracy. In the area of the economy, one of the things that we have always believed is that more freedom in the economy is part of living in a free society. So perhaps additional credits to small businesspeople or transparency, learning contracts, the rule of law.

And so what we hope people in the Arab world will see and in the broader Middle East will see is, if you would, a catalog of potential support. And we don't impose this on anyone. We don't say you must take this. What we are suggesting is here are some possibilities, and if those possibilities are of interest to you, then we would like to be in support of you. If they're not of interest to you, that's perfectly fine. There's no purpose here in imposing anything on anybody. That would be impossible.

QUESTION: What are the incentive, then?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Excuse me?

QUESTION: What are the incentive?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, the incentive seems to me to be twofold, at least. First is that the conversation about reform is not started by us; it's, of course, started by people in countries like Egypt and the government in Egypt and the government in Jordan and Bahrain and Morocco and Yemen. And so there's this conversation going on, in Saudi Arabia as well. We're listening to it and we want to support it.

And so the first thing is that as governments relate to their people and as civil societies become more effective, then the first incentive is that that's what democracy is all about. The second incentive that I would propose to you, sir, is that if you look out at the world in what we define today as successful countries, what do you see? I believe that you see countries where there is a strong democracy, there's a strong civil society, there are strong individual freedoms, where women participate in society, and when there is a successful and free economy.

And as I say, we don't say that people have to do things like Americans. You don't have to have an American system of democracy. But our observation is that successful societies have certain attributes, and among those attributes are freedom and a free economy and democracy and rights of individuals.

So we say to people, if this is a correct observation, then you should have the incentive to try and develop this in your own country, in your way, at your own time. So I think the incentive is to be part of this conversation in the world.

QUESTION: I'll be frank here in my question.

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Yes, sir.

QUESTION: People don't question the description here. Everybody wants more democracy, freedom, human rights and everything. But people have many doubts about (inaudible) imposition (inaudible). And you know what in the (inaudible) with regard to U.S. image in Middle East, this is not going to help promoting this initiative. Do you think so?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: But with respect, I just want to take issue, if I could, with the basis of your question, which is to say that somehow there's a sick patient and the United States is the attending physician. With respect, I don't agree with that.

The patient here has to heal itself. The patient here has to recognize its own challenges. And that's why, for example, the Arab Development Report, the United Nations Development Program in the past few years, I think is so instructive. It's not written by Americans. It's written by Arab sociologists. So they have insight into some of the challenges in the Arab world.

So the patient has responsibility for healing itself. This isn't a matter of the United States proscribing or the United States being a physician. So, with respect, I don't see it that way.

QUESTION: Okay. So do you envision any role for NATO in this --

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: In this broader Middle East?

QUESTION: NATO, yeah.

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, we'll see. As you know very well, there are three summits coming up in June: the G-8 Summit that you were nice enough to mention; a summit of the United States and the European Union; and on the 28th of June, in Istanbul, there will be a NATO summit. And at NATO, there's been a conversation about what kind of cooperation or liaison might be possible between countries in the Middle East and NATO.

People have been talking about civil emergency planning, for example. If there was an earthquake or a flood or some other kind of natural disaster, why not have a relationship with some of the NATO countries? There's been talk about whether people might be interested in border security or help with some cooperation in stopping trafficking in women and children and people, or nonproliferation.

And I believe that at Istanbul, on the 28th of June, NATO will speak and say here are some possibilities, but they will all be voluntary. So if Egypt, for example, wishes to participate in some of these ideas, that would be wonderful. If Egypt, on the other hand, decides that this is not, for the time being, is not for Egypt, that's perfectly fine, too.

QUESTION: Egypt, I believe Qatar (inaudible) some others, they will not attend the G-8 Summit. It's going to make any difference for you?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, I don't think so. Every country has to make its own decisions. And when I say, sir, as I did in the very beginning, that our object is not to impose an initiative or not to impose ideas on others, the logical conclusion is that countries can make up their own minds about whether they wish to attend meetings or not. Or, as I just said with the NATO Summit, if a NATO initiative arises and a country wishes to participate, excellent. If a country --

QUESTION: So not imposing (inaudible) anything?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: No, I think it's a matter for each country to decide. This is --

QUESTION: (Inaudible) vote for maybe?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: It's not up to me. It's up to each country. Here's what I hope for. What I hope for is that people in the broader Middle East, people in North Africa, will look at the G-8 Summit and they will say, here are a group of countries who want to support reform, reform by government, reform by civil society. Here are a group of countries not dictating, recognizing diversity, recognizing that it takes time, that here are a group of countries who are offering their help. And as I say, whether countries in the area wish to accept that help or participate in this program is totally up to them.

QUESTION: Okay, to more topics, Iraq and Palestinians, because the issue on (inaudible). With regard to Iraq -- China, France, Germany, Russia have made problems with your (inaudible) Security Council, they need more changes. What do you think about these requested changes?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, we'll see what all the specifics are. There have been a couple of rounds of consultation in New York. As you know, the UN Security Council is not the Politburo; nobody dictates to the Security Council. And so we'll see. This is a perfectly normal debate, a conversation about a resolution, and everyone has to be comfortable with that resolution. It has to pass. And so we're willing to work with people. We have wanted to take their ideas. I believe a resolution will come that everyone can support.

QUESTION: Fine. To be more specific, do you want to consult with the interim Iraqi government with regard to anything the coalition forces will be doing there except for self-defense? Will you accept that?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: We'll see what's in a resolution and what's in the arrangements that are made with the Iraqi interim government. The important thing right now is to recognize that Ambassador Brahimi, the UN representative, who I think is some days away from announcing his ideas for a very important interim government, and also important for your viewers to recognize that on the 1st of July sovereignty will, in its full form, return to Iraqis.

In fact, it's interesting. One of the things that doesn't get played up very much is a lot of authority is already moving back to Iraqis. Thirteen of the Iraqi ministries are already in the hands of Iraqis, and our Ambassador Negroponte will go out to be one of the ambassadors of a number of countries to the interim government.

QUESTION: It's impressive because you are talking about full sovereignty. I remember you and others saying limited sovereignty. What are you talking about now?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: What we were talking about was some limitations that would be self-imposed, not by us, on authority. In other words, as the Secretary has said over the past couple of days, American forces will always be under the command of an American commander. Iraqi forces will be under the command of an Iraqi commander, and also an Iraqi Minister of Defense. But there might be a time, and this would obviously be up to Iraqis, when Iraqi forces might work together with American forces and they might, for some time, be under the command of the multinational force commander.

And so these are the arrangements that get worked out. We do this all around the world, and we can do it in Iraq.

QUESTION: But this is not hypothetical question here. Suppose U.S. forces want to attack a city, let's say Fallujah, for example. The U.S. (sic) interim government says, "Thank you, we don't need this at this moment." What's going to be the situation?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, I think it's, as you say, it's not a hypothetical situation. We've already seen --

QUESTION: (Inaudible.)

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, no sir. I was saying it's not hypothetical because --

QUESTION: Oh, yeah.

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: -- because you've had exactly that in Fallujah. And what have you seen? You've seen, I believe, a very close working relationship between the Iraqis and the multinational force. You've seen an exchange of views. And I think so far -- we'll see -- so far a success in Fallujah. And I believe, as you and I are speaking, there is some positive news coming from Najaf as well, where Iraqis and Americans have been working together.

So people think of this as some great, new thing that's never happened before in this world, but, of course, we do this all around the world. We work with security forces all around the world. And so we know how to do this. This is about working with a sovereign government which will be in Iraq. And I really have no doubt that we'll be able to manage this after the 1st of July.

QUESTION: Okay. I was listening to Ken Pollock recently at Brookings Institute and he was worried about you and the U.S. being very much involved in the process to select a new interim government, and this could, in a way, tarnish the legitimacy of this new identity. What do you think about this?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Well, I think, first of all, the selection of that government is really the responsibility of Ambassador Brahimi and we're in close touch with him, and I think he's working through this process in a very professional way. He's very good at these things, as he showed in Afghanistan.

And so I don't worry about this. I believe that there will be an interim government. I don't say to you or your viewers that every single Iraqi will agree with every single appointment, but the job of this government is to go from the 1st of July to December or January, and the job is to what? Administer the country and then have elections in December of this year or January of next year for a transitional government. And I believe that the work Ambassador Brahimi is doing, with our full support, will be -- will certainly produce that kind of government and produce that success.

QUESTION: But it is not just supporting. You are working (inaudible) in choosing the members of that government.

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: No, the responsibility for choosing really is his, and, as you see, he has been consulting widely with many, many, many Iraqis, groups, all kinds of people. And, yes, he's consulting with us as well and I don't think that should surprise anybody.

QUESTION: Okay, I want (inaudible) last issue (inaudible). Of course, the disengagement plan Prime Minister Sharon (inaudible) in the Likud Party vote, and now they are talking about another version of this plan. Is it something you understand, you accept?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: We've really not seen this new plan. And we'll see what Prime Minister proposes to his party and then we'll work from there. But I think, as we have said over the past few weeks, that we think that the idea of disengagement is a positive one. In fact, we are for two states and Prime Minister is now saying that people would leave Gaza. That's a very important thing.

QUESTION: You had discussions with Abu Alaa and he met with Secretary Powell and Dr. Rice.

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: Yes.

QUESTION: Do you have plans for more consultation with the Palestinian Authority?

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: I think that as the Palestinian Authority head, Abu Alaa, said after his meetings with both Secretary Powell and Dr. Rice, he found them both to be positive. I think the Quartet statement that came the other day from New York was recognized as a positive development. The abstention also on the UN Security Council resolution the other day was welcomed by the Palestinian Authority. And so we want to have this conversation. We are, of course, major donors to the Palestinian Authority. We are interested in this. And as I said before, this is very important because President Bush is in favor of a Palestinian state.

QUESTION: Well, nobody believes that you'll be more engaged in the Middle East in this election year.

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: You know, I know that that's what people say, but I really don't think that that's true. And the reason I say that is because our President has put out a major initiative, and that is to be in favor of a Palestinian state. And as we go through our year, I believe that if there's any opportunity to move forward here, we will take it. I just can't believe that an opportunity would arise and someone would say, "Oh, no, we have to put this aside because there's an election in the United States." I believe that when an opportunity arises to move forward on the peace process issue, we will take it.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, thank you very much for your time. Appreciate it.

UNDER SECRETARY GROSSMAN: I thank you very much.