Interview on National Public Radio's Morning Edition with Steve Inskeep

(2:00 p.m. EST)

MR. INSKEEP: All right. Well, let's get right into it here. And I want to ask a little bit about the future, although I realize you're stepping away from the picture here, and I want to start by talking about Iraq, if I can. I mean, as you're aware, there was a lot of comment about whether the United States was prepared for what happened, the aftermath of the invasion of Iraq. Now you're coming up to another big milestone, these elections. And I'd like to know if you feel that the U.S. and its allies are prepared for the aftermath of those elections, whatever they may be.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I think these will be historic elections. There are some questions about the number of Sunnis who will be able to participate, but we and our coalition alliance, as well as the Iraqis, are doing our best to try to get security in such a condition that people will be able to vote if they want to, and afterward, we'll see where we are. Clearly, we don't see the election itself as a pivotal point. It is a part of the process. In fact, one could say it's the beginning of a process, the process where Iraqis will write a constitution and at the end of the year will actually vote for a permanent government.

MR. INSKEEP: Analysts will suggest that it's possible that this could lead to more civil discord rather than less. I just wonder if you see that as a possibility that you have to prepare for.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I've noted that civil war has been averted and avoided thus far, even with the stated intensions of Zarqawi to bring it about. And so I think civil war is not in the offing, but I think most in the government expect the violence to continue long after these elections.

MR. INSKEEP: That's interesting because some people would look at the situation now and describe it as a kind of civil war.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I think the Shia have been very restrained. The Sunnis are attacking everyone. The Kurds have been restrained in the north by their own behavior, but not constrained by the coalition. And I think that shows the vast majority of Iraqis consider themselves Iraqis first and then Shia or Sunni or Turkoman or Chaldean or Syrian or Kurd latterly.

MR. INSKEEP: Because this will go on for a while, is it safe to assume that the time when U.S. forces can substantially withdraw is when Iraqi forces are prepared to take over a lot of the fighting?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I think that we have to put all our effort in to getting the Iraqi troops prepared so that we can hasten the day that coalition forces can remove themselves from Iraq. It would be irresponsible to prematurely leave Iraq, I think, and leave it in this situation of some chaos.

MR. INSKEEP: Well, this is what I'm wondering about then. I was speaking to a U.S. military officer who has served in Iraq, someone, I should say, who supports U.S. policy there but also adds that in the view of a lot of military officers, the longer U.S. forces stay in Iraq, you get into a situation of diminishing returns. Resistance builds up. The longer you are there, the more resentment you build up, and that there is a time limit beyond which you really can't go.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I think, as a general matter, I would agree with his suggestion, but I don't think anyone can determine what that time limit is. There is a great irony here, and I will be a little irreligious here. The irony is that our friends in Iraq, that is those Iraqis who want us to succeed, in a way, need us to leave, and our enemies, those who are fighting against other Iraqis, need us to stay because in a way it justifies their continued jihad against us.

If you look at every single opinion poll, you'll find that Iraqis have some resentment, but overwhelmingly, they realize that coalition forces are necessary now to provide security; every single poll has shown the same thing.

MR. INSKEEP: Some of the parties that are participating in the elections have talked about demands for the U.S. to go as soon as the elections are held.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Now, politics does rear its head in Iraq, just as it does here in Washington, and you will note that those same parties who have in the past stated their intention to ask the coalition forces to leave have started to change their presentations a little bit and acknowledge that they never put an actual time limit on this departure. So I think you see some pre-election run-up and rhetoric and afterward I think you will see a little different story.

MR. INSKEEP: Do you think that U.S. allies, who, as you said, need us to leave, also feel strongly that the U.S. needs to stay and support them for a period?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I don't think there is any question. That's why I was referring to polls that show, yes, people don't want foreigners on their soil, but at the same time, the greatest, vast majority realize they have to have the coalition forces to provide security until Iraqis can stand up in sufficient numbers with sufficient leadership to provide for their own security.

MR. INSKEEP: That's another question, granting that you're not at the Pentagon, but as a veteran, as someone who has a lot of information come across his desk, what is your judgment of the state of training of the Iraqi forces?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I guess the best way to answer it is to look at Fallujah in April, at the recently completed Fallujah activities and the activities of the Iraqis who fought alongside. In April, Iraqi units, by and large, did extraordinarily poorly in Fallujah and I think they were judged as having failed. In the recently completed Fallujah operations, Iraqi battalions fought at a much higher level of combat than in the past and by commanders, our commanders' accounts, performed much more credibly.

So I think you can clearly see we're on the right path. Now, the question would be, as Mark Twain used to remind us, even though you're on the right track, you can get run over if you're not going fast enough. And that's why the President has asked General Luck and his colleagues to go out and assess the situation, see if we're training as rigorously and in the best possible way these Iraqis.

MR. INSKEEP: General Luck is the American general who is leading kind of a mission over there to review U.S. policy on Iraq?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, assess -- you're being a little fast and loose -- simply to assess the training of military and the security forces. It's not a review of all U.S. policy. It is a career military officer's review.

MR. INSKEEP: Okay. Having been through military training yourself, do you think it is really possible to speed up the training of a highly skilled military force?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, we've seen that Iraqis know how to shoot weapons and they know how tactics are undertaken. I think that the answer to the question lies with whether we're successful in standing up a sufficient number of leaders to lead the troops. There are no end of people who are signing up, even in the face of great viciousness, to be police officers, to be serving in the Iraqi National Guard or the army. We have to find sufficient leaders who will be worthy of these young men.

MR. INSKEEP: Who take even longer to train than, perhaps, soldiers do -- infantrymen.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, some would say leaders are born and not made. I think they're born and made, and so it will take a while to identify them. That's the real key, to identify people who have leadership capability.

MR. INSKEEP: A couple of other questions, if I might.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Sure.

MR. INSKEEP: In the years before you came to work here at the State Department, you gave a speech in which you were quoted as saying, I wrote this down, "being responsible means occasionally pissing people off." In the light of the policy debates of the last several years, I wonder if you could just describe how it is that you attempt to move the government, move the bureaucracy, when you had differences of opinion about which way to go on major issues?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, differences of opinion are something you as a citizen and I as a citizen should value in your government. You really want it. I can assure you of that. You don't want a government that sees everything the same way. That would be bad -- it would lead to bad governance, in my view.

We try to -- there's an old Washington saying, "Where you sit is where you stand." We sit here in the Department of State and our equities are to make sure we properly represent our view of the proper foreign policy path for the president. And he will make a decision if he agrees with us or not. Sometimes he does. Sometimes he doesn't. And sometimes he sort of agrees.

But if we faithfully represent our bureaucracy here, then we've done our job. When we've presented a president with a full menu of options and he is the only nationally elected leader, he'll make a choice based on what he's heard, and we'll march on. And if we don't happen to come out on top on any particular issue, tomorrow's another day.

MR. INSKEEP: There have been instances in which you, or your boss, Secretary Powell, have been seen as making public statements about North Korea, about the Middle East, that seemed more moderate or at least at odds with other members of the government. And I'm just asking about practicalities here. Is that one of the ways that you try to move policy, you get the viewpoint out there and see if it sticks?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Using the bully pulpit that Washington affords one is, of course, a way to try to noogie the policy agenda forward. But we don't try to create scrimps and false impressions. When Secretary Powell speaks or when Rich Armitage speaks, we're putting out our views. And we will do so respectfully, of course. This is what the President paid us for, to bring him our views. And of course, he can agree with us or not as he chooses.

MR. INSKEEP: You said a moment ago that it is not valuable to have a government where everybody thinks the same way. Some have perceived the changes in the cabinet, including Secretary Powell's departure and your departure, as something of a narrowing of the viewpoints that will be available within this Administration in the second term.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I think it's a little premature to make the judgment seeing that Dr. Rice and her colleagues haven't had the first moment in office as Secretary of State.

I would note that both she and Mr. Zoellick, who is going to replace me, are seen as having views that are quite similar to Armitage or Secretary Powell.

MR. INSKEEP: And you said, "Where you sit is where you stand." Do you think that Condoleezza Rice might represent a somewhat different point of view because she's over here at the State Department?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I think, first of all, she's an accomplished academic and policymaker who has a lot of years of experience under her belt. She doesn't just sit here and mouth what comes up from the bureaucracy any more than Secretary Powell or I did.

We have our own views and we tried to infuse those views into the bureaucracy. I'm sure Dr. Rice will do the same thing. And there will be a meld. And that'll be quickly.

MR. INSKEEP: A couple of other questions, if I might.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Sure.

MR. INSKEEP: And I don't know where we are in terms of how much time we've spent, but two or three more questions --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: You've got all the time you want.

MR. INSKEEP: (Laughter.) That's very kind. Thank you very much.

Moving back to Iraq for a moment. Before the invasion of Iraq, it was suggested that a change in administration in Iraq, entirely aside from whatever good it might do in Iraq, might also change the entire Middle East, particularly the Arab-Israeli conflict. Now that some time has passed, almost two years, do you think that that's working out?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, let's take a look. You're about to see a historic, what I describe as a historic election at least in Iraq on January 30th. It'll be messy and probably won't be pretty, but you can be certain historic.

But throughout the whole Middle East, I think any observer would have to note that there are the winds of change. You have elections in Saudi Arabia coming up – (inaudible). You have education reform. You have more transparency in economic views throughout the Middle East. So there is a lot going on. It wasn't all brought about at all by the invasion of Iraq. But it certainly assisted some to remove what was a deadweight and a threat to the region, hence, Saddam Hussein, to allow these new winds of change to kind of blow in the region.

MR. INSKEEP: Can you think of one particular breeze that you would say is directly related to the change in government in Iraq?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah. I think that our friends in Kuwait feel freer to open up their society. The same is true in Bahrain. And clearly, the -- there is no question that what has been blossoming for the past 12 years in Kurdistan that is now free from the threat of Saddam Hussein has been made known to the entire Middle East and I think that's having a salutary effect.

MR. INSKEEP: Is there any advice that you have given to Condoleezza Rice and Bob Zoellick as they prepare to take over?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, any advice that I gave to Dr. Rice will necessarily remain between Dr. Rice and myself. She was kind enough to spend some time with me and I chatted with her, as I always have, frankly and clearly.

MR. INNSKEEP: Let me rephrase, if I can. Oh, you've got a --

(Phone call.)

MR. INNSKEEP: I caused you to miss the Secretary?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: That's all right. I'll see him in a few minutes. He's the only one that uses that line.

MR. INNSKEEP: I'm so sorry.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: He's in the car coming back.

MR. INNSKEEP: You should have shut me up. You don't have to --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I didn't hear it. I was concentrating. You were going to rephrase the question.

MR. INNSKEEP: I'm trying to remember. Oh yes, yes. You were saying any advice --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I said I wouldn't give -- tell you what I told Dr. Rice.

MR. INNSKEEP: Let's put it this way. This Administration moves on, the country moves on. I wonder if there's one piece of advice or one word of caution that you would offer to people as they move ahead.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, I've spoken to those who wanted to speak with me about these matters. I will tell you what Secretary Powell and I are going to keep in the forefront of our minds, as we leave this first Bush Administration, and that is something we've learned in Washington over the years. When you remove your fist from a pail of water, there's no hole. It's a good thing to keep in front of your mind.

MR. INNSKEEP: I'm trying to work out that analogy there --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Think about it.

MR. INNSKEEP: The point is you're saying that you won't be missed?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, the government continues, the people's business continues to be done, and those who follow us are faithful and loyal servants of both the country and the President, and I think the nation won't miss a beat.

MR. INNSKEEP: Do you really think that there won't be a particular viewpoint that is less strongly represented in Washington because of the change in personalities?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: We'll have to see. But as far as I know, no one enforced a gag order on Secretary Powell or on me in the future, so there will be plenty of voices. You were referring earlier to people who were speaking out about this or that aspect of Iraq, and I note that you were clearly referring to people in think tanks or former government servants who are out speaking. There will be plenty of opportunities for opinions, not to worry.

MR. INNSKEEP: Okay. Before I cut this off, let me just ask Bruce, our editor who has been listening in, I'm just wondering if you have any questions that you'd like to put through.

A PARTICIPANT: A couple of questions.

MR. INSKEEP: Okay.

A PARTICIPANT: If, after January 30th, whoever is in power in Iraq asks the U.S. to leave, what do we do?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Do you want to ask the question?

MR. INNSKEEP: Well, I will. I thought I had, but I will again. But, you know, I think I didn't. Granting that you think that the new government will want Americans to stay, what if the new government asks the U.S. to leave?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Then we would leave.

MR. INNSKEEP: Even if it's a short timetable?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: If the government of a sovereign Iraq asked us to leave, we would leave, period.

MR. INNSKEEP: Would that be a nightmare?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: You'd have to ask the Government of Iraq. We have testified -- my colleague Paul Wolfowitz and I -- we've said very clearly to the U.S. Congress, if that circumstance exists, then we would leave, period. No qualifications, no weasel words. You've got the answer to your question.

MR. INNSKEEP: Bruce? Back to you, Bruce.

A PARTICIPANT: I mean, Secretary Powell was in the Reagan Administration. He was Secretary Weinberger's military aide. You were there with him. I mean, we know that administrations have fights between the Secretary of Defense and State. Now you've seen that one and you've seen this Administration. Could you compare them?

MR. INSKEEP: Go ahead. Go ahead, Mr. Armitage.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I used to, along with Secretary Powell, who was military assistant to Secretary Weinberger, we would have home-and-home series breakfasts every Wednesday morning with Secretary Shultz, Secretary Weinberger, and we would sit down very cordially and then disagree on the breakfast menu, and it only went downhill from there. So I think the point here is many in Washington want to make all these "battles" personal. We sit and occupy different bureaucratic ground and in order to fully identify any problem and possible solutions for the President, it's necessary that we have a "battle." And I haven't found Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Powell having any difficulty agreeing on the breakfast menu.

QUESTION: Well, that's interesting, though. The personality conflicts may have been greater in the Reagan Administration, but I wondered if the policy differences, in fact, have been greater in this Administration, even though you can talk about them politely.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I think you've got to refresh your memory. You'll remember in the arms control war particularly there were very bitter, bitter struggles, many forests were felled so reporters could write about these epic struggles. This was without, by the way, two wars. It was the backdrop of the Cold War, but not two active wars. So these "struggles" are necessary, and, they're a good thing for our government.

QUESTION: Do you think there have been two, or even more, fundamental viewpoints of the U.S. role in the world expressed in this Administration?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I don't think they were fundamental differences. I think they were differences of sometimes timing, differences of emphasis, or em-PHA-sis, depending on which side of the argument you're on. But I don't think there were fundamental differences. A lot of things changed after 9/11 in this country as a whole and in the government, and I don't think there were the huge differences of opinion about where we want this nation to be or how to use all of our instruments of national power for the greater good of this country. But there were timing questions and emphasis questions.

MR. INNSKEEP: And important timing and emphasis questions. Do you get tough on North Korea and talk tough to North Korea, or do you negotiate, for instance?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, we have to do both, which is what we've done. We made it very clear we were not going to be fooled, as the previous administration was fooled, by faulty agreements; that we would negotiate in good faith and we've sat down at the six-party talks with them and we're ready to do it again when they come to the conclusion that they want to do it. So it's necessary sometimes to get people's attention.

MR. INNSKEEP: Deputy Secretary Armitage, thanks very much.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Thank you.

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