Interview on CNN With Paula Zahn

MS. ZAHN:  Mr. Armitage, always good to see you.  Welcome.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Thank you, Ms. Zahn.

MS. ZAHN:  First of all, how is Secretary Powell doing?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, I got two calls from him before 7:00 a.m. and I've had another one since, so he's right as rain. 

MS. ZAHN:  Has this health scare made the Secretary reassess how long he might stay in this post?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Not at all, and it wasn't a scare.  He's known about it for some time.  He chose this time deliberately, hoping that it would be a slow time in the season.  And as he said, he serves at the pleasure of the President and will continue to do so.

MS. ZAHN:  So you can't see any situation where any ongoing treatment he might have to have will impact on his job?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  I think he's in very good shape.  When these holidays are over, he'll be back.  And if it's any indication the way he's been dealing with me today, he is back already. 

MS. ZAHN:  Is he giving you a hard time?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  I wouldn't say it's a hard time.  We're too good a friends for that.  But he's inquisitive and he does like answers.  He was a general, and 35 years in the military makes someone like that.

MS. ZAHN:  Absolutely, and I know you're used to answering the questions as well. 

Let's talk a little bit more about the raid that netted the capture of Saddam Hussein.  What went through your mind the first time you saw the videotape of the rather pathetic and undignified looking Saddam Hussein in U.S. custody? 

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  I thought to myself that here is a fellow who had sent thousands and thousands of young men to their deaths, both in wars with Iran and the invasion of Kuwait and the subsequent battles with the United States, and yet he gave up without a fight and looked like the bum he was. 

MS. ZAHN:  So is he the ultimate coward, in your judgment? 

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, I think you have to consider someone who sacrifices to the last citizen, and he himself gives up meekly, would have to be considered an ultimate coward.

MS. ZAHN:  Did you expect him to give himself up alive?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  No, I thought he wouldn't.  I didn't think he'd subject himself to the humiliation.

MS. ZAHN:  Why do you think he did?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Clearly he is more afraid of dying than he is of living in humiliation. 

MS. ZAHN:  Would it have been easier for the United States, do you think, had he been taken dead?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, I actually think this is better because it will, once we've worked out the procedures for a fair and transparent trial, it will give people who have been victims of his torture and killings a chance to cry out from their graves for justice, and it will also give the families of those victims a real chance for closure.  So I think ultimately this is much better.

MS. ZAHN:  I understand that part of the equation, but I also know how strongly you feel about what a consummate liar he is.  Do you ever expect the interrogations to yield anything useful?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  I think he may yield things useful without knowing that he is yielding useful things.  And interrogations, though they're always conducted, at least by us, in the proper manner, over time do lead to people to say things.  So yeah, but he is an unmitigated liar, and we're going to have to check and check carefully everything he says.

MS. ZAHN:  Can you characterize for us what we've learned so far from him?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  I would like to say that those who speculate about what he's saying don't know, and those who do know are not speculating.  So I think because of the need to check everything out, to follow up all the leads that have been gained by this capture, public officials need to be quiet about it.

MS. ZAHN:  So there's nothing you can tell us about any leads you've gotten now that Saddam Hussein is in custody?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  There is nothing.

MS. ZAHN:  Nothing that you can share with us?  There are leads but --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, there's nothing that I want to share with you.

MS. ZAHN:  Okay, I understand that.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Nothing personal. 

MS. ZAHN:  Okay, I won't take it personally.

Let's talk a little bit about the net impact of his capture on the ongoing insurgency movement.  I know the last time we spoke you said very clearly that his capture would be important psychologically but you expected the terror to go on.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  I think his capture means we've removed the symbol of defiance but not the root cause of the defiance that exists in Iraq today, and we do expect the violence to go on.  And after the deaths of Uday and Qusay, I would just note that the violence actually spiked a bit before settling back down.

MS. ZAHN:  So what kind of vulnerability will our troops continue to have?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, I think our troops are covering up their vulnerability by careful tactics and careful patrolling, as best they can.  But clearly Iraq will remain a dangerous place for months and months ahead.  I think that's the burden of what Lieutenant General Sanchez has been saying in Baghdad.

MS. ZAHN:  I know in previous appearances here you have talked about the roots of the insurgency movement, and there has been a lot of conflicting information over the last couple of days about whether these insurgents are, indeed, tied to Saddam Hussein.  What can you tell us about that?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, clearly since they, in the main, or by and large, are former regime elements, so they at one time had ties to Saddam Hussein.  But I believe if you look carefully at all the information that is out in the public arena, you'll see that many of them who oppose us are pan-Arab nationalists or pan-Iraqi nationalists who think they're fighting to rid Iraq of an oppressor.  Quite the opposite is the case.  We came as a liberator; we will leave as a liberator.

MS. ZAHN:  How do you stop the insurgency movement, though?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  I think in the central region, the area which is, in the main, populated by Sunnis, we have to get buy-in from the Sunni tribal sheikhs, buy-in into the economic life of the new Iraq and in the political life of the new Iraq, and we have to continue to work assiduously to keep communal violence down.  Thus far, we have been very fortunate, and I think the people of Iraq have been most mature in keeping the inter-Iraqi violence down.

MS. ZAHN:  What kind of a timetable, sir, are you talking about here?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, the 15 November agreement makes it very clear that by the 30th of June of next year, the CPA of Mr. Bremer will turn over authority to Iraqis.  That does not mean that the coalition forces will leave, but it certainly means that we will no longer be sovereign in the person of Jerry Bremer.

MS. ZAHN:  And what is it that concerns you the most in the interim?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, look, we've got a lot to do in the seven months before June 30th.  We have to work out all sorts of arrangements for our continued presence.  We also have to work on arrangements for the provision of a transitional national assembly, a transitional government.  So there's a lot to be done. 

MS. ZAHN:  Let's talk about just how remarkable this raid was.  We know that really superb intelligence ultimately led U.S. troops to Saddam Hussein.  Did luck play any role in his capture?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  You know, Napoleon said that he'd much rather have lucky generals than smart ones, and I think every general officer will tell you, and every officer in the world will tell you, that luck always plays a part.

My understanding is that on occasion we had been somewhat close to Saddam Hussein and had just not quite pulled it off.  This time we were both smart and lucky.

MS. ZAHN:  But when you look at the pictures, where they found him, under a piece of styrofoam, under a small rug, that could have been pretty easy to miss, couldn't it have?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, that was my point.  We did miss it.  But the combination of information given up by people being interrogated and knowledge of the general area, I think led us and our soldiers of the 4th Infantry Division to be quite accurate this time.

MS. ZAHN:  So when we missed him before, was he in the same place where we found him?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  I don't have that information.  I don't know. 

MS. ZAHN:  All right, sir.  Final question for you.  According to reports, the Department of State, including the Secretary of State, were among the last in the Administration to find out about the capture of Saddam Hussein.  Was your Department sidelined?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, I don't know.  I think Secretary Powell was called in pretty good order.  Certainly the President needs to know first, the National Security Advisor.  But my understanding was that shortly after that Secretary Powell was informed, and he informed me.  So I wouldn't say we were sidelined at all.  This is, in the main, an intelligence and a military show, and when we need to know something we get the information. 

MS. ZAHN:  There is a constant patter about a lot of tension between the Pentagon and the State Department.  Describe to us tonight what you think that relationship is.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Well, I think there is always tension.  I've served with Cap Weinberger and George Schultz, and if you want to talk about tension, you ought to talk about those days.

I think the American public is served well by a certain amount of creative tension, which makes sure that all issues are exposed to the President.  I think in the wake of the war in Iraq, and given the enormity of the reconstruction efforts that we're involved with, that actually relationships have gotten quite a bit better.

MS. ZAHN:  But you don't see the State Department in any way being undercut by the Pentagon? 

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Oh, listen.  Everybody is always saying that someone is undercut around here.  We come in to work every day, put on our packs and hump throughout the whole day, just like our colleagues at Defense and National Security Council and Treasury, et cetera.  So I don't have time to guess who's undercutting whom.

MS. ZAHN:  So you say they talk about it.  So you personally don't feel that's the case.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  Listen.  If you're a bureaucrat, as I am now, you always feel that's the case.  But most of it's speculation and idle chatter, rather than actual fact. 

MS. ZAHN:  Richard Armitage, always good to have you on the show with us.  Thank you again, and please give Secretary Powell our best wishes for a speedy recovery. 

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE:  I certainly shall, and thank you very much.