Roundtable Interview with Arab Media

10:20 a.m. EDT

QUESTION: Good morning, Mr. Secretary. The U.S. went in for, in Iraq, partly, because of -- to enforce UN Security Council resolutions, but now that there's this -- with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and UN Security Council resolutions regarding that.

So my specific question is: Is the U.S. standing by 242,338 and other resolutions dealing with Palestinian refugees like 194?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: 1397 and others; I don't have all the --

QUESTION: Many of them, like maybe 17, like the --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: But 242,338 is -- we are still standing by it. And then I think this was reiterated during the discussions with His Majesty King Abdullah, and you will notice that the President also made it very clear that we won't prejudice the outcome, or put our thumb on the scale, or whatever phrase you want to use. The outcome of the negotiations, they have to be mutually agreed by the two sides.

QUESTION: And refugees?

QUESTION: The resolution is about refugees, 194.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Which one is that?

QUESTION: The - about the UN General Assembly.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: When the President spoke about realities on the ground previously, he was giving voice to something that is very well known. But he also said very clearly that this is something that has to be mutually agreed between the two parties, and that's the overwhelming, and operative, if you will allow me to use in there -- phrase.

QUESTION: Yes. There was a letter recently. The President gave the King a letter, basically. What would you describe this letter as? Is this a letter of assurances or guarantees?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, I don't think -- I don't think it would be a letter. I would describe it, putting forward the President's views on the peace process, two states living side by side in Palestine and Israel. The President went on to say that he was going to be sending a letter to Abu Alaa, and Dr. Rice, of course, will be meeting in Berlin, laterally with the Prime Minister. And he made very clear that he -- the President is not tired -- (laughter) -- in his search for peace, and he's going to continue it.

I think there's a bit of, if you -- well, my view, I won't ascribe it to you -- my view is that there is a bit of wind in the sails following the Quartet meeting in New York. I noticed a positive -- presidential spokesperson for President Mubarak's statement. We had a pretty good statement from His Majesty King Abdullah. Others in the Arab world have spoken in somewhat positive tones about the Quartet.

But, most importantly, I know Nabil Shaath indicated it was positive. So, perhaps we're coming back to a much more reasonable position to be able to, hopefully, make some progress.

QUESTION: Sir, there have been some suggestions of actions to follow up on the apologies of -- that followed the scandal on the prisoner abuse in Iraq. One of them is to demolish the Abu Ghraib prison, but, perhaps, more importantly, is to allow the equipment of the Red Cross, the Red Crescent to monitor, head one of the prison facilities. Is that something the State Department favors? Are there any real actions on the ground to try to probe the situation for solutions?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah. I've seen discussions, particularly in the U.S. Congress, about the desirability of blowing up Abu Ghraib, and that sounds like a reasonable thing to do to me. But there are detainees that would have to be resettled and taken care of first.

But from our point of view -- I think this is a fair statement -- the most important thing is two-fold: one, to get to the bottom of the abuses; and second, to make sure that justice is done.

I said the other day I couldn't be angrier and I couldn't be sorrier for the humiliation these detainees faced. Now the only thing we can do for them, I think, is to give them justice, and we have to do that. That's more important even than blowing up Abu Ghraib or something else which is symbolic. We have to do something real, in my view.

QUESTION: Thank you.

QUESTION: (Inaudible) that the Iraqis will help? (Inaudible) that the Iraqis help monitor or run the prisons?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah, it is. I believe that come 30 June, 1 July, Iraqis will be running these.

I think our job right now is to make sure that we leave to the caretaker Iraqi government the fewest number of detainees, that is, that we ought to investigate fully those that are in detention and those that are deemed to be free from the blood on their hands and they should go, go home, quickly and leave the maximum number, that's where -- or leave the minimum number, excuse me. That's where our efforts are right now.

QUESTION: Sir, in retrospect, do you feel circumvented by endorsing Mr. Sharon's plan before the Likud Party endorsed it? And if not, would you explain to us how is that?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, it's quite -- it's quite simple. He was obviously unsuccessful in persuading the Likud Party. But as Secretary Powell says, equally impressive is the fact that approximately 80 percent of the people of Israel thought this was a good step to take.

So we look at it as an opportunity, the first time since 1967. The settlements would have been evacuated. We look at it as an opportunity to get the World Bank and other major institutions in supporting the Palestinians and who are helping swore that the settlements would be available for Palestinian use.

We'd hope that the border between Egypt and Gaza would be open to commerce, and things of this nature that could, that would be a possible movement forward. But it would not be the end of a process. It was the beginning of a process. I think we all think we all made that quite clear.

QUESTION: To pursue this successfully, sir, would you request that a nationwide referendum be done on the issue right now?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yes.

QUESTION: In the U.S.?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Oh, I can request a national referendum here. No. Israel will make their own mind up. I wouldn't suggest from an American point of view that we ought to ask the Palestinian Authority to have a national referendum. That's their business.

QUESTION: Sir, yesterday, you said that you are in the hole and trying to climb out of it.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah.

QUESTION: Obviously, what happened in Abu Ghraib --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I also said it was a blinding glimpse of the obvious.

QUESTION: That was your answer, sir.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah. I mean, who would say we're not in a hole? And that's --

QUESTION: Obviously, what happened is being used by, you know, extremists, and profound anti-American feelings are as you have said there.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Of course, of course.

QUESTION: But what can you tell us from what you've -- what are you getting from your embassies? What are you really hearing from the various governments there? Obviously --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: In the Middle East or more general?

QUESTION: Both. In Europe and the Middle East because, judging by what you see in the press, obviously, people are extremely concerned. But what are you getting in terms of --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: We are getting just what you'd expect, that -- well, there are two messages. The first one is, many in the Middle East say, "We always liked Americans. It was your policies that we objected to, and that's why opinion polls were negative." But it wasn't about individual Americans.

And so, for the first time, some of them are saying, "You know, this may be about Americans, as well as your policies." That, I think, over time we can overcome. We'll start by being as transparent and clear about who did what to whom, and what the justice -- what justice demands.

But beyond that, I think it hasn't really sunk in fully in the Middle East. In a -- but it's, I think it's -- it's sinking in more and more, and that's not a good thing. It's going to, I think, further hurt our image in the short term.

In Europe we're seeing that people, as I said last night, have very strong views about torture, and what they saw in some of those pictures is torture, not just humiliation, but torture. And so they're quite upset with it. It also gives the European friends who are angry with us for a number of reasons, you know, something to put up in our face. And that's very understandable.

So what we're doing in this Department, and what we will do elsewise is to prepare over the long run to try to demonstrate to people in the Middle East and in Europe that this is not Americans and about Americans. It is an aberration -- I trust to God that it is -- and that we will correct it, and we'll correct it in a way that can give some confidence to friends both in Europe and the Middle East that we do what we say and mean what we say.

And, but we cannot hurry this process. We're going to have to work every single day to try to correct this wrong.

QUESTION: Do the new measures on the ground touch on security, given, I mean, that, that --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Not yet, but --

QUESTION: -- that Americans throughout the region may be subjected to intense --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, this is an obvious possibility, but I don't -- I, myself, don't find that certainly in Europe and certainly in the Middle East, generally, that people are out to attack Americans.

This has struck at something different. It's struck at their belief in our value system. And it's, so right now I think the overwhelming response in the Middle East is huge disappointment.

Now, I saw that General Abizaid in Iraq said that he had not seen as wide a reaction as he had initially thought. And so, I mean, he's there, I'm not.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, the controversial letter of assurances that was presented by the President to Ariel Sharon on April 15, it came two days, actually, after the President met the Egyptian leader at his --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: After President Mubarak, yeah.

QUESTION: Yeah. And there is an argument that it was some kind of a political insult to Egyptians because they, somehow, they were left in the dark. Even the President of Egypt said that he was shocked; he was surprised; it seemed that he didn't know that this was coming.

And the question is, can you talk a little bit about the damage of any -- that these assurances, this move, the timing has made to Egyptian-American relations? I mean, do you feel that it was really necessary to discuss with the Egyptians, Jordanians, the Saudis, such a shift before talks (inaudible)?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I won't speak to the -- what exactly was discussed at Crawford between the two leaders and between the two sides.

But I will say that as far as the United States is concerned, Egypt and Hosni Mubarak both, have been friends for an awfully long time, and we're going to do everything we can to make sure that stays -- that remains the case.

The President spoke to President Mubarak yesterday and had a pretty good conversation with him. And I, as mentioned before, the Presidential statement following the Quartet statement, so I'll let our Egyptian friends say if they had bad feelings, and they're welcome to any feelings they had.

But from our point of view, it looks to me like we're in a position where we can move forward on Egypt, and we're going to try to do so.

QUESTION: So they didn't communicate to you any displeasure about the problem?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yes, they did.

QUESTION: They did communicate that?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yes.

QUESTION: And your reaction, sir, was?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, our actions will be diplomatic.

I'm not telling you what they said, and I'm not telling you what we did. (Laughter.)

Sir.

QUESTION: Yes, what's the situation as it stands today in Fallujah regarding U.S. actions? Are you satisfied with the status quo there or not?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, the status quo is not going to be maintained. The status quo would be a certain number of foreign fighters and what we call, anti-coalition militants still having heavy weapons, et cetera.

But if we're satisfied with the direction in Fallujah, yes, we are. We feel that General Latif and his colleagues, he had enough -- what's the Arab word?

QUESTION: Wasta. (Laughter.)

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Wasta to be able bring, to bring -- is that right?

MR. ERELI: You got it. (Laughter.)

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: He has enough connections to bring forth a rather sizeable force. Now, they haven't had to fight, and we'll see if they do.

Hopefully, the town notables in Fallujah will be able to prevail upon those who would want to fight in Fallujah to lay down their weapons, in which case, we would have determined that we've worked out a very good, sort of, wise yet determined solution. But that, we're not at that day of reckoning yet, they're still organizing the so-called Fallujah Brigade.

But at a minimum, I think we've demonstrated to Iraqis in general, to the Sunni in particular, and to the Arab world and the general world that we're not bloodthirsty, we're not intent on doing harm for no reason. We are trying to resolve issues in the most -- well, let me put it differently. We're trying to resolve issues in the least destructive way possible.

At the end of the day, however, we still reserve the right to use combat power if people are trying to -- determined -- or to negatively derail the direction Iraq's heading in.

QUESTION: And Najaf, what about Najaf?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Najaf seems to be a little better situation. The -- Moqtada al-Sadr and his gang are still around, but in fewer numbers. And it is my observation that the local residents are quite unhappy with the fact that Moqtada al-Sadr and his gang, because of their antics, have not only disturbed the vibrant life of -- in Najaf and Karbala, they've also disturbed the economic system as well.

And that's why you see an increasing number of the prominent Shia clerics calling for him to get out of the mosques with his weapons, get out of the schools. We found a playground -- I didn't even realize there was one -- but a playground near Najaf that was a hiding place for weapons.

So I think that's moving in a good direction primarily because the people of Iraq want this nonsense to stop -- most of them.

Sir.

QUESTION: Sir, I think that this week a number of former U.S. diplomats wrote a letter reciting the U.S.-Middle East foreign policy. We also, we were told that the decision by President Bush to back the Sharon International Plan was made mostly at the White House. Are these [inaudible] the State Department?

And finally, it appears that Secretary Rumsfeld also kept the prisoner abuse from the rest of the Administration. So, sir, do you think that the State Department still has an influential role to play in the foreign policy of the U.S. in the Middle East? And are you upset by all these examples?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No. First of all, I welcome anybody, these citizens', former diplomats', former military -- whatever criticisms. We welcome it because it shows the strength of our system. And their willingness to speak out, I think, is a good thing. It speaks well for our country, but also makes sure we understand their views.

Number two: the State Department was involved throughout the question of the development of policy. And just by the way, it looked to me like it was the Department of State who ran the Quartet meeting in New York. So we don't feel we were cut out at all.

Now, on the question of abuse, the Administration knew, and the ICRC has made it very clear that they told us of various abuses for some time. I don't know that anyone, certainly in the Department of State, knew about pictures more than about one or two weeks before they became public here.

I never saw them, certainly. I never did and I know Secretary Powell never did. I don't think Mr. Rumsfeld did either. And I need to let him and his colleagues speak about who they informed of what, but suffice it to say that the ICRC had been communicating with us and we had taken, as they've said, some actions on some of the things that they considered to be abuses.

QUESTION: Sir, do you remember the meeting between Dr. Rice and Ahmed Queria, the Palestinian Prime Minister as an instrument of estrangement between the Administration and the Palestinians? That's one.

Second, why did you talk in Europe and not in Washington? And third, sir, was the President's statement that he would, or wouldn't be sending any letter to Mr. Queria backtracking from his endorsement of the Sharon Plan?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No. He's not backtracking from the endorsement of the Sharon Plan at all. My understanding is that the -- Abu Alaa, that Abu Queria was going to be in Europe and so was Dr. Rice, and it looked like a very convenient thing to do. And clearly, as the President said, he's reaching out a hand to the Palestinians.

So our "estrangement" has been in the main to Mr. Arafat, and that will continue. But many in the Arab world criticized us for having been too close to the former Prime Minister, Abu Mazen -- that we hugged him too close and therefore didn't give him enough oxygen. So maybe we're trying to be a little more diplomatic.

QUESTION: So Israel does have a part of these negotiations, now?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: We are reaching out to determine that. I think if you look at the President's statement yesterday, he was very clear about it.

We have enough time for another round, I think.

Oh, I'm sorry.

QUESTION: The Syrian Accountability Act. Can we expect any announcement soon? I mean, really soon? We have many times --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: As the President [inaudible] --

QUESTION: Are we talking about days? And what about the reports that Syria's offered some collaboration on the ground, on the border, and that the State Department recommended that, but the Department of Defense is still reluctant?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: My understanding is that first of all, we've got a common border that needs to be patrolled. My understanding is that military officers in the region and Syrian military officers have had some contacts.

QUESTION: American and Syrians, on the border?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah, that's my understanding -- military. Military to military; very appropriate and a very good idea.

On the accountability act, you'll have to content yourself, still, with the language, as soon as the President has signed the act. The Administration, the bureaucracy is busy dotting "i's" and crossing "t's," so it'll be soon. But I don't want to predict how many days.

MR. ERELI: You want to just -- let's reverse directions. You want to go, take another one?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: This'll be a 30-second question, 30-second answers. I almost promise. (Laughter.) I almost promise.

QUESTION: Sure. This is also with the Arab League Summit that's coming actually, sometime this month. So if we can --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: We hope.

MR. ERELI: Let's go this way.

QUESTION: That's okay. That's okay.

MR. ERELI: Go ahead.

QUESTION: Okay, go ahead.

QUESTION: Why not involve the Syrians and the Iranians a little bit more in terms of working on stabilizing Iraq. I mean, the -- the Iranians are obviously involved there. I don't know to what extent to (inaudible).

But why not at least challenge them publicly to help with the stabilization effort, especially when the Syrians are offering it?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: First of all, I think I would not challenge anyone publicly. I think that's probably exactly the wrong way to go about it.

We have had conversations with the Iranians and we do have meetings and are meeting with them. As you know, a delegation from Iran came to Baghdad. Both we and the British met with them and had a good exchange of views about the situation surrounding Najaf. So I don't think there's any misperception here about the need to create stability and how to do it. And depending on to whom you speak in Iran, you might get a more or less flexible answer.

QUESTION: Right, right.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: On Syria, look, as the President said last May -- excuse me, as the Secretary of State said last May, the Syrians have got to make a basic decision. And they haven't, in my view.

Now, people in the Arab world tell us a lot of different reasons why they haven't been. Suffice it to say, they haven't yet. And I hope they do make the decision to take a meaningful part in the life of the Middle East. It cannot escape them that there's only one Baath Party left. But we await President Assad's making that decision.

QUESTION: Sir, you stopped the release of the Human Rights Report.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yes, I did.

QUESTION: Should we expect that, and when it's released, it will include the situation in Iraq --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, it won't. You mean the Abu Ghraib? No, it will not, definitely.

QUESTION: Generally?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, it will not, definitely, because it's an '03 report. It's not the '04 report. You can expect next year's report to talk about it. But it -- no, and you will expect it out next week. And I am the one who stopped it, and I stopped it for the reason I announced last night.

QUESTION: On Saudi Arabia, the latest State Department report on terrorism applauded Saudi Arabia's effort to fight terror, but at the same time the Saudi Arabian Government took some measures, including jailing some reporters in Saudi Arabian Kingdom.

So how does the Department balance the war on terror, on one hand, and making sure that the bulk of the governments in the Middle East do not infringe on both freedoms and on press reform?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: That's a good question. First of all, in the war on terror, as I was with Prince Saud at the very moment the bomb went off and it rattled his house terribly, we both knew immediately it was a car bomb; and he reached for his telephone to call and check where it was, and our Ambassador, who was with me, called the Embassy right away to make sure we were okay.

But it's just another sign of how much things have changed in Saudi Arabia that everybody knew immediately exactly what had happened. And they have, since the May bombings a year ago, and the three major bombings -- May, October, again last month -- they really had a changed view of counterterrorism and they have worked hand-in-glove with us to get on top of that.

The question of freedoms and reform, et cetera, is one that is moving in each country in the Middle East in a different way, at a different speed, for different reasons. Not because the United States is out here talking about reform, but because the people of the region yearn in different ways for different abilities to express themselves or to have transparency to work against corruption.

And we will continue, in the case of Saudi Arabia, to be very clear on our views. They have their own views, and they welcome our discussions in these. You know, I saw Crown Prince Abdullah, had an excellent discussion with him, even when we disagree. So I think we're having a more mature relationship with Saudi Arabia, a country which will go through enormous and difficult change, and we have to be a little patient with it.

Yes, sir.

QUESTION: When do you expect to get a new resolution on Iraq, and what promise has been made in bringing Muslim and Arab troops? Yesterday, there was a hint that Jordan is sending troops to Afghanistan.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Oh, to Afghanistan? That would be great. But I think you saw King Abdullah yesterday said that the neighbors are a little close to Iraq and maybe their motives might be suspect. So we haven't, and I didn't, ask for Arab troops during my recent trip.

QUESTION: John already said -- mentioned Pakistani and Moroccan --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Pakistani or Moroccan are a little bit different. I was speaking sort of the more close-in neighbors.

Regarding the UN Security Council resolution, we're having informal discussions with the Security Council. We have not put a text forward because we want to make sure that we get everyone's views first so we don't start on the wrong foot, if you will, or on the bad foot.

John Negroponte, who has been confirmed as our next Ambassador to Bangkok -- Baghdad, is staying up at the UN for a while so he can shepherd this through. Once we do make a decision to have a Security Council resolution, it probably makes sense to let Minister Brahimi finish this time in Iraq -- he got there yesterday -- let him finish getting the consensus views of all Iraqis before we put something forward that's going to talk about their future. So it will be after that sometime. I don't have a date. We don't have a date.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, the --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: The Arab League --

QUESTION: I believe -- yeah, the Arab League question. (Inaudible) this month, and it would be for the G-8.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: You're sure?

QUESTION: Yep. (Laughter.)

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: You're sure? (Laughter.)

QUESTION: I'm sure this month. (Laughter.)

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Wait a minute. (Laughter.)

QUESTION: No, no, no -- don't wait. (Laughter.)

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I need to you send a (inaudible). (Laughter.)

No, I --

QUESTION: A wager here? (Laughter.)

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I think it's --

QUESTION: So it's -- you're waiting. And the question is: Is the Administration encouraging the Arab Leaguers to come up with some form of a statement, a document, an (inaudible)? Will you, sir, confirm somehow to our audience, our readers, how far, to what extent the U.S. moves on the Middle East peace process and the reform issue are prior to domestic agenda to elections this year? It's a two-part question.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, I think the moves on the Middle East peace process and the very, I think, positive Quartet meeting is one that is not universally popular here in the terms of elections. So I dismiss the idea that that's electoral politics.

The reforms that we've talked about, and I think as I've said before, we got off on the wrong foot with that because we left the impression that we were trying to -- the United States was trying to come in and force something top-down on the various Arab nations. And no, we understand very well that each has unique characteristics and cultures and hopes and aspirations, and so the only possible success could be when reform comes from within the individual countries.

And we think that the Arab League ministers will speak about this. We look forward to whatever they produce. We've had individual discussions with them all. By the way, I saw that Amr Moussa also said something pretty good about the Quartet meeting, by the way. I didn't add him to my --

QUESTION: Which is hard for him, I bet. (Laughter.)

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah. (Laughter.) So we'll look forward. We think there'll be a ministerial meeting, too, and we look forward to seeing what they have to say.

MR. ERELI: Thank you very much.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Thank you all very much, and now you can wish me luck because I'm going to go into that gym to work out, and I'll be back Monday morning.

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