Interview by Tony Snow & Brit Hume on Fox News Sunday

SECRETARY POWELL: What the President asked Prime Minister Sharon to do was to begin the process of withdrawal, and do it now. I am pleased to hear that the Prime Minister says he is expediting his operation, speeding them up is the word your correspondent used, and your correspondent also indicated that there was a move to begin leaving from cities that have been occupied. I hope that Prime Minister Sharon took President Bush's injunction very much to heart and will speed this up and start to withdraw, as President Bush said, without delay. And he means now.

MR. SNOW: This is a little confusing to many of us. Most people think withdrawal without delay means start rolling tanks backward. Instead, what's going on is more troops are being parachuted into the area and taken into the area. There is an accelerated pace of military operations. That is not inconsistent with the President's request?

SECRETARY POWELL: The President doesn't give orders to a sovereign Prime Minister of another country. But as one of Israel's best friends and most supportive friends, I think Prime Minister has taken very much to heart -- and he understands clearly the message the President gave to him.

I spoke to Prime Minister Sharon again earlier this morning, and I'm quite sure he understands that message, and the President is expecting, without delay, meaning now. And so you'll see how the Prime Minister responds in the very near future.

MR. SNOW: Let's back up. Israel moved into the West Bank nine days ago. Was it justified in doing so, in response to bombings?

SECRETARY POWELL: Israel acted in its own self-defense, something that the Prime Minister has every right to do. The people of Israel expect the Prime Minister to act in the self-defense of the society. And he acted because of the massacre that took place on Passover eve, yet another horrible incident where some 27 people died -- the latest casualty count as the wounded have died. And he acted at that time, and we understood the reason for his action, but we also suggested that he had to be somewhat considerate of the consequences of that action. We were concerned that too big an incursion, too much military force, might have other consequences, and we said so at the time.

We have now had several days to see those consequences unfold; and while he is doing what he feels he needs to do in an act of self-defense, the consequences are affecting Israel and the United States, and the interests of peace and the interests of the political process. When we have demonstrations and riots throughout that part of the world, throughout the Middle East, and when we start to see some long-established relationships between Israel and some of its neighbors, and the United States and some of those neighbors, start to be damaged, perhaps in an irrevocable way with respect to Israel, the President thought that we had to take consideration of those potential consequences.

And that's why he called Prime Minister Sharon yesterday and why he gave the speech last Thursday saying that we understand what you were doing, but this is the time to start moving in the other direction. And that is why we have supported UN resolutions saying that as well.

MR. SNOW: So he was justified originally in going in, in self-defense

SECRETARY POWELL: We're saying we understood why he went in. He went in in an act of self-defense. But we think that we are now seeing consequences for the massive nature of this incursion that are starting to have negative consequences.

MR. SNOW: We are worried, in other words, about the Arab street.

SECRETARY POWELL: We are worried about a lot of things. I am first and foremost worried about the peace process, and first and foremost worried about getting to a political settlement. Because for however long the Israeli incursion lasts, whether it ends tomorrow or whether it ends a month from tomorrow or two months from tomorrow, we'll be right back where we are today, and that is a need to find a way for these two peoples to live side by side in two states: a Jewish state called Israel and a Palestinian state called Palestine.

And no matter how effective the Israeli Defense Forces are in the period ahead, however long they're going to conduct this operation, when it's over they will have to pull back. They have no intention of staying there. The Prime Minister reiterated that repeatedly. And there will still be those who, if they don't see a solution, if they don't see a political process, they will resort once again to terrorism and violence, and we may well be radicalizing a new generation, many more terrorists, waiting to act once this incursion is over.

MR. SNOW: Nevertheless, there have been no suicide bombings since the Israeli incursion. Is that a coincidence or a consequence of their actions?

SECRETARY POWELL: There have been attempts at suicide bombings. The Israelis have been able to thwart them, and just this morning the Prime Minister was telling me about another car bomb that got stopped. And so I think the massive presence of Israeli troops certainly is a deterrent to this kind of suicide attack, and I am pleased that that has been the effect.

But we have to realize that sooner or later Israel will withdraw its forces and those same pressures will be there, that same frustration will be there, that same anger will be there, and perhaps it will be even greater and it will give rise to this kind of activity again -- unless the Palestinians see hope, unless the Palestinians see Israel, the United States, Palestinian leaders, the Arab leaders, the international community, all coming together to support a cease-fire which rapidly leads to negotiations that will create a political solution. The anger will not be dealt with, and the frustration of the Palestinian people, whether you think it's justified or not, their anger, their frustration, their desire for a state, will not be satisfied by military force. You can't keep this pressure on them forever; sooner or later it could only be satisfied by a political process that gives them a state, and the sooner you get to that point, the better.

MR. SNOW: I want to get to that in a bit, but a couple more questions about Israel first. Does the United States have a specific deadline for Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank?

SECRETARY POWELL: The President said yesterday to the Prime Minister that he expects it without delay, and by that he means now. Start now.

MR. SNOW: We understand "start." When does he want it finished?

SECRETARY POWELL: He didn't talk about a specific deadline. It's been a massive buildup. When they do start to withdraw, it's not going to be over in a day. It took a while to do it, and they are still conducting operations. And so the President and the Prime Minister did not talk about a specific end point.

MR. SNOW: How long will you stay?

SECRETARY POWELL: I have not decided yet. As you know, I leave tonight for Morocco to meet with Crown Prince Abdullah, who is in Morocco at this time, and it gives me a chance to see King Mohamed; on to Egypt to consult with President Mubarak and others; Madrid to talk to my European colleagues, Kofi Annan, the Secretary General, and Igor Ivanov, the Russian Foreign Minister will be there; and then back to the region, probably directly to Jerusalem, and when I get to Jerusalem I'll make a judgment as to how long I will stay there.

MR. SNOW: How will you measure success?

SECRETARY POWELL: You know, I can't answer that question right now. I would be absolutely delighted and very pleased if we were able to get a cease-fire in place in the not too distant future, whether it's a result of my efforts or just because it makes sense, or the results of the efforts of many, many others. Anybody who thinks that in one week's time anybody can go there and come back with a completely satisfactory solution -- but if we have brought the violence down, if we have started to create a dialogue again between the two sides, then my trip will have been worth the energy that I'm going to put into it and the effort we're going to put into it.

MR. SNOW: Do you believe Yasser Arafat is interested in a cease-fire?

SECRETARY POWELL: I believe Yasser Arafat, by his statements, is interested in a cease-fire, but he has not done what he should have been doing to achieve such a cease-fire and get to the political process that he needs, we all need. He could have done more with respect to controlling the passions of these people, by speaking out against violence, by not encouraging this kind of activity. He could have done more with the security forces that he has under his control. He could have done a lot more, and he did not. And his efforts are a disappointment to us. They were a disappointment to the previous administration.

But nevertheless, I still think he has come to the realization that there is no way forward other than through a cease-fire and a political process. He will not be able to defeat Israel, if anyone thinks that is in his mind or in the mind of any Palestinian leader. It will not happen. And so all we're doing is killing lots of innocent people by this kind of activity. We're killing lots of innocent, young Palestinians who commit this act of murder called suicide bombing, and we're killing lots of innocents on the other side, and other Palestinian innocents are killed in the response that comes back the other way. So we've got to bring this to an end.

MR. SNOW: You have said you are not yet decided on whether you're going to meet Yasser Arafat; however, Palestinian Authority spokesmen have said if you don't talk to him, you don't talk to anybody. You need to talk to both sides, do you not?

SECRETARY POWELL: I have to talk to both sides. I mean, if you're going to have a dialogue and if you're trying to get people to talk to one another about a cease-fire, then you have to be able to talk to both sides. So I have talked to Mr. Arafat on the phone, as recently as last Monday. It's a little more difficult to do now. And I have met with him three times. General Zinni has met with him, our Special Envoy. And so we have spoken in the past, and if circumstances permit while I'm there, I will try to speak to him and others.

MR. SNOW: "Circumstances permit," meaning the Israeli cabinet gives you permission?

SECRETARY POWELL: It could mean a lot of things. There are security issues, there are access issues, there is what agenda we will have. We'll just wait and see how the next several days go.

MR. SNOW: If you could not meet him personally, would you talk to him by phone even though you --

SECRETARY POWELL: I talk to him by phone now, and we'll see.

MR. SNOW: Now, Israel says it has uncovered evidence that Yasser Arafat was directly involved in helping pay for explosives that have been used by suicide bombers. Is that true?

SECRETARY POWELL: I don't know. I have seen some public presentations of the evidence, and I am sure it is going to be made available to our side. But I haven't myself seen the evidence and it is very damaging if the evidence does exist --

MR. SNOW: If that were -- the al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades. The State Department has now identified that as a terrorist organization. It is assumed that that is directly under Yasser Arafat’s control. Its leader has said as much. If Yasser Arafat is in control of a terrorist organization, why would he not be considered a terrorist?

SECRETARY POWELL: It's not clear what he is in control of and what he isn't in control of. This is not quite the sort of hierarchical organization that I grew up living under. And there are loose aggregations, but clearly the al-Aqsa Brigade is dedicated exclusively to terrorism, and that is why we have put them on our terrorist list.

MR. SNOW: The President has said, and you have just said in the last couple of minutes, you want Yasser Arafat to take a specific number of steps. Are there any steps that he must take before you will meet with him?

SECRETARY POWELL: I haven't laid out any specific steps, and we'll consider as I conduct more consultations in the region exactly what circumstances I would like to see met or have to be in place for me to have a conversation with him.

MR. SNOW: If he does not meet conditions that the President or you lay out, what will we do? Anything?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, let's wait and see whether or not conditions is the right formulation. What I want to do is begin a dialogue. He did meet with General Zinni last week, and Special Envoy Zinni said to him that it was very important for him to agree to the plan that Toni Zinni had put forward to bridge the differences between the two sides in getting toward a cease-fire under the Tenet proposal. We would like to pursue that. And one of the problems right now is that Mr. Arafat's isolation is such that he has no contact with his principal advisors, who could help bring us to this decision point where we could get agreement on General Zinni's proposal. And so we're trying to open up some communications between Chairman Arafat and his advisors, and therefore have an opportunity to move forward.

MR. SNOW: You mean the only problem here is phone lines?

SECRETARY POWELL: It's more than phone lines. I think he has to be able to consult with his advisors, and right now he's pretty isolated. But phone lines are also a problem. He essentially is quite isolated.

MR. SNOW: Since the 19 -- since he returned to the region in 1994 as a result of the Oslo Accords the previous year, what has he done to advance peace?

SECRETARY POWELL: We had the Oslo Accord in '93. We had, of course, the signing ceremony that took place on the lawn of the White House; the creation of a Palestinian Authority; a peace treaty with Jordan in 1995; and there was a period of quiet in the late '90s. So it shows he can perform. But, unfortunately, all the efforts that were made during President Clinton's administration did not result in the comprehensive agreement that we were all looking for as a result of the Oslo process. They never got there. And President Clinton gave it his all. He and Secretary Albright and National Security Advisor Berger and Dennis Ross, and so many other people put their heart and soul into trying to get that agreement. And they came quite close to what would have been a historic agreement at the end of the Clinton administration, but neither side could agree to it at the end of the day.

And so we came in office, and what we found was a process that had fallen apart, and an Israeli government that had been put out of office because the Israeli people were looking for an end to the Intifada through security, the kind of security that Prime Minister Sharon promised in his campaign. And so for the last year we've been trying to reach that level of security and confidence in the form of a cease-fire so that the two sides could get back to the negotiating table, and that is what we have been unable to achieve.

But I am just as convinced today, as I was the first day I stepped into the office that that has to be our goal, to get that cease-fire, or you can't get to a political process. I am also convinced that once you get that cease-fire in place -- and I think it will come in due course because neither side will prevail on their current course.

So once we get that cease-fire, it is important that the political process be moved up. We have to quickly get to negotiations because the Palestinian people are looking to those negotiations for the creation of a state. And we have to look for a way to get that state created as quickly as possible so both sides then have a vested interest in negotiating the permanent boundaries of the state, deciding how the two sides will live in peace with each other, restoring their economies. Both economies are being destroyed right now.

MR. SNOW: Okay, we're going to take a quick break. We want to tease out the implications of all that. Still with us, we'll have more with Secretary of State Colin Powell in just a couple minutes.

(Commercial break.)

MR. SNOW: And we're back with Secretary of State Colin Powell. Also here with questions, Brit Hume, Washington managing editor of Fox News.

Secretary Powell, one more question about Yasser Arafat. A lot of people are interpreting the President's remarks where he says Arafat's not a man of his word, and he expresses a lot of disappointment -- are interpreting the President's remarks as saying this is Arafat's last chance. Is it?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, the President certainly expressed the disappointment we all feel in Chairman Arafat's performance. Whether it's his last chance or not, I don't know. Maybe he doesn't have any more chances. But I know this, that in this crisis he has got to act like a leader. He has got to speak out against the kind of violence we've been seeing, and he has to do everything in his power. As restricted as those powers are, they are still there. He has to do everything in his power to try to control the passions of the Palestinian people and to help us get out of this crisis.

MR. SNOW: So he's got to crack down on his media.

SECRETARY POWELL: He's got to crack down on his media as well. I'm going to make this case to the Arab leaders I meet with this week. We need more responsible statements coming out of Arab capitals. We need all Arab leaders to act responsibly in this time of crisis.

MR. HUME: Mr. Secretary, if Chairman Arafat doesn't respond in the way that the President and you have prescribed, what then? What are the consequences for him as far as we are concerned?

SECRETARY POWELL: I don't know what those consequences might be. Chairman Arafat, whether one likes it or not, and whether one approves of it or not, does occupy a position in Palestinian society. He is seen by the Palestinian people as their leader, and that has to be taken into account. He is also the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority. We don't think he has discharged those duties as well as he should, either as a leader or as the Chairman, and this is the time for him to act. But consequences -- we'll just have to adjust our policies as we go forward and see.

MR. HUME: Mr. Secretary, no sooner had the President spoken on Thursday than we had a response here in Washington from the representative of the Government of Saudi Arabia, Prince Bandar, who wrote in an op-ed piece in The Washington Post, read in many places, widely circulated by the Saudi Embassy to make sure nobody missed it, that appeared to fly in the face of much of what the President had said. I believe we have a couple of quotations from that to take a look at. The Palestinian people, he said, are burdened by tremendous suffering and calamity as a result of the continuing aggression of the Israeli Government and the insane policies of its leader." That, of course, a reference to Ariel Sharon. Prince Bandar went on to say other things as well about Israeli terrorism and so on.

My question to you, sir, is how do you interpret that in the immediate aftermath of the statement made by the President -- and your repeated calls for a more responsible approach by Arab leaders?

SECRETARY POWELL: I don't think that Prince Bandar wrote that or published that letter, or gave the speech from which the letter is drawn, with knowledge of what the President was going to say or do. But what Prince Bandar is reflecting in that article and in the speech that he gave, and what other Arab leaders are reflecting, is the anger that exists within their societies. It is not for me to tell Prince Bandar what he should say or not say, but there is a level of anger that is rising in the Arab lands that is of concern to us and should be of concern to Israel. Israel, in this current operation, will certainly round up terrorists, will find incriminating information, will find weapons; but when the operation is over and they withdraw, as they say they are going to do, they will still leave behind those who are committed to violence. In fact, they may leave more behind as a result of the radicalization. And what troubles us is we are losing some of the support that we have had in the Arab world -- Egypt, Jordan, you see Saudi Arabia, you saw the statements of the foreign ministers -- losing some of the support we had for the kind of engagement that is needed with Israel to find a way forward. And this is what really caused the President to say to Prime Minister Sharon at the very beginning of this operation, consider the consequences of your actions. And we're starting to see those consequences and how it affects Israel's long-term relationship with its neighbors and our long-term relationship with its neighbors, that caused the President to say this is the time to end this activity and begin with the withdrawal now.

MR. HUME: Well, in addition to the Bandar expression, you have the reaction of the Arab League foreign ministers meeting. They, like Saudi Arabia's Bandar, say nothing of the terrorist attacks that we have so decried against Israeli citizens. They speak as if these attacks do not exist. You now go to face Crown Prince Abdullah. What hope do you have that if that is the attitude of his government, and these other Arab governments with which you hope to have some success, that you'll have any success?

SECRETARY POWELL: They know that these acts of terrorism are destructive of the peace process. They know that these acts of terrorism have to stop. And that is what I will talk to them about and reinforce that, and say that we are expecting them to do more to help the Palestinian people and to bring this kind of activity under control.

But what you are seeing in these statements, these very strong statements that are coming out of foreign ministers, coming out of good friends of the United States such as Prince Bandar, who has been a supporter of all of these efforts -- the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia is the one who went to the Arab summit and got a statement out of that summit that would have been a historic statement, except for the message being drowned out by the suicide bombing on Passover eve. And so the Saudis are prepared to play a more powerful, active, supportive role.

But what you're seeing in these statements is a reflection of the passions that exist within their own societies, and so they feel a need to speak out in order to represent the views of their people, just as others are representing the views of their people and acting in response to the passions of their people. And this is the kind of activity that is causing us to be concerned about the effect of this continuing incursion.

MR. SNOW: Mr. Secretary, the President called upon Arab leaders to lead. He made that statement yesterday. He has made it a number of times. The conventional wisdom is -- and I want you to help us out with this -- that what we're saying to them is, okay, you need to deal with Yasser Arafat, you need to insist that he crack down on terror, you need to insist that he give in Arabic speeches that condemn terror, you need to make sure that he changes textbooks and so on. Is that the role we want our Arab allies to play?

SECRETARY POWELL: You certainly touched on some of the points I'll be discussing with our Arab friends, and asking them to play a more active role in these kinds of activities, yes.

MR. SNOW: They are also going to argue to you that Israel has committed atrocities in this war. It's a war. Jennifer Griffin has talked about bodies rotting in the streets. You have heard stories about the inability of ambulances to get through. Are those legitimate complaints?

SECRETARY POWELL: In my conversation with Prime Minister Sharon this morning, I made the point that there is a humanitarian dimension to this incursion as well, and there are Palestinians in these cities who are innocent, who are not terrorists, but they can not get to food, water supplies have been interrupted, power has been interrupted, and there have been problems in medical services, and these issues have to be dealt with as well. And I think he understands it and I think he's going to try to do everything he can to move in this direction, to help with these humanitarian issues.

But that is also why the President, watching this unfold over the last several days, said this is the time to bring this to an end, to start the process of withdrawal as soon as possible, meaning now.

MR. SNOW: But you are a military man. Do you know of any case in history where a dispute of this sort -- that involves land, that involves old passions -- is resolved before one side wins a war and therefore has the ability to dictate terms of a truce?

SECRETARY POWELL: Israel has not declared a war that it wants to win. It is fighting terrorism. It is not trying to take over these lands. Israel has as its goal the creation of a Palestinian state. Israel will never live in peace if it has to occupy each and every city, village and town in the West Bank and Gaza. That is not what Israel wants.

MR. SNOW: So it stipulated; but on the other hand, you still have a number of people, do you not, in the West Bank who want Israel to vanish?

SECRETARY POWELL: They will not be successful if they have that view and that vision. Israel will not vanish. It is not going anywhere. That is what the Arab leaders said in Beirut just a few days ago. Twenty-two nations agree that we have to find a solution so that Israel can live in peace and in normal relations with 22 Arab nations. The Arab League understands this, and that was the statement they put down the day we had the terrible massacre.

There was such promise on that Wednesday afternoon with this statement from the Arab League. It was just a vision. It would have taken a lot of difficult negotiation to make that vision a reality. We had General Zinni there just about to get an agreement on going forward with a cease-fire. We had good UN resolutions. There was so much promise, and so much promise on that afternoon, and it was all destroyed by the terrible act of violence against innocent Israeli civilians practicing their faith on Passover eve.

MR. HUME: Is it not your concern, sir, that if you go on this mission, even if you are able to bring the two parties close even to a cease-fire, that all it will take is one more act of that kind by someone perhaps discouraged even by Palestinian leaders, to blow the whole thing up again?

SECRETARY POWELL: Of course it's a concern, but we should have no illusions that all suicide bombers now and forever are going away and giving up that method of terror, because Israel has been in the West Bank towns for three weeks or three months. That problem will continue to exist until the Palestinian people and the Palestinian leaders can persuade the Palestinian people that this is not a tactic that will be successful, it is not needed, we have a peace process, we have a political way of achieving our vision and finding a better life for our people, and it does not come through suicide bombings and terror.

MR. HUME: And yet, sir, you announced earlier on this broadcast that the Israeli military operation appears to have had some role in suppressing that level of violence. That being the case, isn't it a lot to ask of Israel to give this up?

SECRETARY POWELL: There is no question that it has had an effect. This massive presence of Israeli troops certainly has that kind of deterrent effect, although Prime Minister Sharon mentioned to me this morning that they intercepted a car bomb. So that will always be there. And if the Israeli Defense Forces want to spend from now on occupying every city, town and village and suppressing the entire population, then perhaps they may succeed in keeping this kind of activity from taking place. But that is not their intent, and they know that that does not lead to a permanent solution.

MR. SNOW: Finally, Mr. Secretary, the President and Prime Minister Tony Blair yesterday talked at some length, both directly and indirectly, about Iraq. Is it the case that as long as we have the violence going on in the West Bank and in Israel that it will be impossible for the United States to conduct an operation against Iraq?

SECRETARY POWELL: The United States is not yet planning an operation against Iraq. As both the President and the Prime Minister said, we are in close consultation with our friends and allies, especially the United Kingdom. And the President has no recommendation on his desk and he has made no decision with respect to a military operation. All options are open, and obviously the kind of situation we find in the Middle East now complicates our thinking and complicates the consideration of options, but it is not a real and present problem because the President does not have on his desk a real and present plan.

MR. SNOW: All right. Secretary of State Colin Powell, thanks for joining us, and good luck.