Interview on Netwerk, Netherlands with Sven Kockelmann

(10:25 a.m. EST)

MR. KOCKELMANN: Mr. Secretary, good evening.

SECRETARY POWELL: Good evening.

MR. KOCKELMANN: Welcome to the program.

SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you.

MR. KOCKELMANN: First of all, briefly if you like, the thing that dominates the agenda of today. As we understand here in Europe, you want the United Nations to help solve a new problem in Iraq: the Shiites who tried to undermine your self-rule plan. What if the UN doesn't want to help you the way you like?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, we have always wanted the UN to play a vital role, and we have been in conversations with Kofi Annan and other UN officials for some time as to the nature of that vital role. One area where I think the UN can be helpful is in helping to bring all parties together to support the 15 November plan, as it is called, which will return sovereignty to the Iraqi people next July 1st, if it unfolds as we hope it will.

There is a debate within the Shiite community about the nature of the caucuses that will be held to select an interim assembly and an interim government, and they have -- the Governing Council, representing the Iraqi people -- have asked the UN for their advice. Secretary General Annan has given some advice that he doesn't think elections can be held in time for the 1 July deadline. But they have also asked him to come discuss it with them and see if he has some ideas for alternative ways of dealing with the caucus question.

Otherwise, I think the Governing Council, those leaders who have been designated to represent the Iraqi people, and the CPA believe strongly that we should stick to the 15 November plan. The Shiites are not against the 15 November plan; their resistance and their concern is how we actually put in place, select, that transitional assembly. And we're in good conversations with the Shiite leadership, the Ayatollah Sistani, and we think the UN might be able to play a helpful role in these conversations.

MR. KOCKELMANN: Can I ask you a personal question? Do you ever doubt?

SECRETARY POWELL: Do I what, sir?

MR. KOCKELMANN: Do you ever doubt?

SECRETARY POWELL: Do I ever doubt? Well, I try to -- sure, everybody has doubts. Everybody goes to bed at night with some doubts. But I usually work my way through any doubts that I might have and I try to keep an optimistic face on things -- not a Pollyanna-ish face, but try to get problems solved. And problem solving is the way one removes doubts.

MR. KOCKELMANN: Has there been one moment the past year that you had doubts on Iraq and the war on terrorism on your policy?

SECRETARY POWELL: No. The war on terrorism is a war that every civilized nation must join in fighting, every European, Asian, African, American nation must join in fighting, because it affects all of us. So I have absolutely no doubts or second thoughts about the correctness of President Bush's policy in going after terrorists, nor should anyone else. How can we possibly live in a world that we claim is civilized in the 21st century if we're not fighting against terrorists?

With respect to the war in Iraq, no second doubts. This was a dictator who has gassed his own people. I've been to Halabja in northern Iraq where he gassed 5,000 of his own citizens. He never abandoned his desire to have that capability. There are questions as to how much of a capability he had. Those questions will ultimately be answered in due course. But there's no doubt in my mind that he had the intention, he had the capability. How many weapons he had or didn't have, that will be determined. But if we had not stopped him now, if we had not done what we did, and allowed him to work his way out of the sanctions, if there is anybody who thinks he would not have built that capability up and remained a threat to his neighbors, a threat to the region and the world, and the possibility of those weapons getting into the hands of terrorists, I think they're mistaken.

And I think President Bush and so many other world leaders made the right decision when they implemented UN Resolution 1441. There will be no more mass graves filled in Iraq, no more people persecuted, no more waste of the oil revenue of the Iraqi people, and the Iraqi people will be living under a democracy, not a dictatorship. And that's what my friends in Europe ought to be looking at: a better life for the Iraqi people. And I'm glad so many of our European partners now are helping us to achieve that better future for the Iraqi people.

MR. KOCKELMANN: Yes, but still, in Europe there is also criticism. And if I may, sir, there was rather much irritation about the lack of doubt on the American side, on the black-and-white statements about the truth, about the good guys, the bad guys; if you're not with us, you're against us. That was not really the way Europeans like to look at the truth.

Can you imagine this irritation?

SECRETARY POWELL: I understand it. And when you say Europeans, you give the impression you're speaking for all Europeans. But of the 26 nations at that are in NATO, or about to join NATO, 18 of them have troops in Iraq with us right now. So those Europeans believe in what we are doing.

I realize there was popular discontent. Nobody likes to see a war coming along down the road, and everybody will speak out against war, if it's possible. I don't like to see war. But when war comes, you fight the war, you get it over with, and then you get on to rebuilding. And that's what so many of our European friends are doing with us now. And I am confident that the European public, when they see that the Iraqi people are facing a better life, with democracy, and are no longer a threat to themselves or to their neighbors, attitudes will change.

MR. KOCKELMANN: Mr. Secretary, thank you very much for joining us.

SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you.

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