Interview on Paula Zahn Now

MS. ZAHN: Mr. Secretary, it's great to see you.

SECRETARY POWELL: Paula, great to see you.

MS. ZAHN: Thank you. I'm going to start off with Haiti this evening. I interviewed President Aristide's wife last night, and she said under no circumstances will he step down. Is the United States encouraging him to do so?

SECRETARY POWELL: We want President Aristide to do what he thinks is best for his country. What we are looking for is a political solution to end the violence. We've been pressing a CARICOM approach which would require both sides to enter into negotiations to form a new kind of government. Unfortunately, we haven't had any success with that because of the resistance, political resistance, really wants to see President Aristide leave. And so we're sort of in a stalemate with respect to finding a political solution.

Meanwhile, we're concerned about the situation in Haiti. We are working with the international community and we are in constant touch with the United Nations, the Organization of American States, with the French, Canadians and a number of other countries, to begin putting together a police force, security and monitoring force that would go into Haiti, once there is something to go into Haiti on, and that is some sort of political resolution. What President Aristide may choose to do or not to do, that's up to President Aristide.

MS. ZAHN: Under any scenario, do you see him surviving this politically?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I think the situation has become very, very difficult, and I regret to say that President Aristide, I think, has made some mistakes over the years. I went to Haiti in 1994, and with President Carter and Senator Nunn, we talked the generals out of power, and President Aristide to resume office.

So over the ensuing 10 years, there hasn't been enough progress made toward democracy, toward clearing out all of the political turmoil that existed in the country, and so legitimate political opposition arose to his leadership and time was lost as they talked to one another. The international community tried to help, but there is such strong resistance now to his presidency that I'm not quite sure if we're going to be able to find a way forward.

MS. ZAHN: Do you have faith that he's the guy that will bring peace to his country?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I brought -- we brought peace to the country in 1994, putting him in, but it's not clear how we're going to get through this current crisis. And I still think he's got to start with a political solution of some kind.

Now a lot of people have suggested to get a military force to go in there now. But that's, in effect, taking over the country. It's, in effect, going into one side or the other, and frankly, there aren't many nations that have an inclination to do that. There are a number of nations, as France announced yesterday, they are ready to provide security forces to help implement a transitional government or arrangement or some other political arrangement where the two sides are essentially starting to try to reconcile with one another. Whether that can be accomplished under President Aristide's leadership or not remains to be determined.

MS. ZAHN: We spoke with a number of folks today who suggested that Mr. Aristide at this point has two options -- either leaving in a Learjet or ending up in a body bag. Is it that dire?

SECRETARY POWELL: I wouldn't make it that dire of a scene, no. We have to keep all options open for a political settlement. And that's what we're going to do. We're going to continue to work hard at it. We've been deeply engaged in this process for a long time.

President Bush and I spoke to President Aristide and to all of the CARICOM leaders in Monterrey in January, at the Summit of the Americas pleading for a movement toward a political solution. CARICOM has been involved in putting forward proposals that would lead to a solution. But unfortunately, attitudes have become quite hardened and polarized, and it's becoming a much more difficult situation.

MS. ZAHN: On to the issue of Iraq, do you think the June 30th deadline will be met for transfer of power to Iraqis?

SECRETARY POWELL: We hope so. We hope so. And it's certainly achievable. I was communicating with Ambassador Bremer this morning. There is progress on the basic administrative law that we need. The real challenge is: What kind of transitional government do we pass sovereignty to? And that's where the real work is going to take place over the next month or so. But it's still achievable. We're still shooting for 30 June.

MS. ZAHN: When you say you're hopeful --

SECRETARY POWELL: Yeah.

MS. ZAHN: -- it doesn't sound like you're 100 percent certain.

SECRETARY POWELL: In this business, one can never be 100 percent certain. But that is our goal and it is an achievable goal and we're working toward that goal, 30 June, turnover of sovereignty.

MS. ZAHN: The United States now has lost more than 500 men and women in this war. We have seen a resurgence of violence among insurgency groups. Has this war been worth the human cost?

SECRETARY POWELL: Yes, it has. We mourn the loss of every young American or coalition soldier that has died for the cause of peace, and sometimes peace requires that kind of expenditure of life, unfortunately. We have seen it throughout our history. And what these young men and women die for is for a nation, people who want to be free, who want to have democracy, who don't want to be consumed with spending all of their treasure for weapons of mass destruction.

There will be no more mass graves filled in Iraq. There will be no more questions about whether Iraq has poison gases or is developing nuclear weapons. And when we are through with our process of reconstruction and turn this country back over to its own people and Iraqis have full sovereignty, and then they go on and have a constitution and elections, they will be, I think, the model for the rest of the region of what can be achieved. And it will be worth it.

And I hope that the families of these young men and women will be proud of what their loved ones did to accomplish this goal.

MS. ZAHN: I'd like to review some of what you said in your speech on February 5th, 2003, before the General Assembly in the run-up to the war, which has now proven to be false. Let me read you part of that preamble, "My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts."

How difficult is it for you to deal with comments like that?

SECRETARY POWELL: The fact of the matter is, when I said that, it was backed up by the facts, as the intelligence community knew them and believed them. And so what I said on that day reflected the best judgment -- not the cooked judgment -- the best, honest and the well-sourced judgment of the intelligence community. Intelligence work is not perfect. Sometimes you get it right, sometimes you do make mistakes; clearly, there were some errors that were made.

But what I think is, clearly, also the case, and what I think I put forward to the world on the 5th of February of 2003, was that Saddam Hussein and his regime had the intention to have nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, had used chemical weapons against its neighbors and at some people, had kept the capability to have such weapons, a program to develop such weapons, delivery means to deliver such weapons.

The only area that has become seriously in question really is: Why weren't there stockpiles there? I can't really answer that question so far. We're still looking. We're still examining documentation.

The fact of the matter is President Clinton and his Administration believed there were stockpiles there. All of our friends around the world who had intelligence capability believed it. The UN believed it by passing resolution after resolution.

Dr. Kay, who was the, you know, chief inspector on our side, he believed there were stockpiles, and he went in to look. He looked for eight months, couldn't find any and said, "I don't think they're there." But he said we still did the right thing. This was a dangerous regime.

So even though we will get to the bottom of what was right and what was not right in my presentation, the fact of the matter is we were dealing with a dangerous regime that had the intention, capability, the programs and the means to deliver weapons of mass destruction. We will get to the answer, as to whether or not there were or were not stockpiles, just before the time of the war.

But I have no questions in my mind that we did or did not do the right thing. We did the right thing. A terrible regime has been removed, and the American people should be proud of that.

MS. ZAHN: You also said, "It was the stockpiles that presented the final little piece that made it more of a real and present danger and a threat to the region and to the world."

So are we to understand that without these stockpiles, there was no clear and present danger from Iraq?

SECRETARY POWELL: No, I didn't say that. What I said was -- I didn't say what you-- the last part of your sentence. What I said was, if we had known at the time we were considering all of this that there were no stockpiles there, then we would have had to consider that, but I didn't think it was a particularly startling statement when I said it.

Whenever people give me new information, my training as a soldier tells me: How does that affect the conclusion I have come to? And that's all I was saying in that reference.

And so if we had known at the time that we were going through the run-up to the war that there were no stockpiles, we would have taken that into account. Might we still have gone ahead? Perhaps. Would we have seen it as a serious or a present danger? Maybe not.

All I was saying is that reasonable people when faced with the new information should put that into their calculation and think it through again.

MS. ZAHN: But knowing what you know today about the lack of stockpiles in Iraq, would you have supported the prosecution of the war?

SECRETARY POWELL: See, I'm not sure that we know everything there is to know about the stockpiles. And that's why we have got hundreds of inspectors still over there. Charlie Duelfer, who replaced Dr. Kay, is still over there. There are many, many documents that have to be gone through. There are many, many people that have to be interviewed. And there are many, many facilities that are yet to be looked in.

It is still a dangerous regime, with or without those stockpiles. And whether I would have come to the same conclusion or not, that was the question I was asked, and the answer was: I don't know. Because I would have had to take a whole situation, once again, into account, and I think the President would have as well.

The fact of the matter is, we did the right thing. This regime is no longer a danger. Whether they had stockpiles or not, they will never have stockpiles in the future.

MS. ZAHN: What has been the cost of this war to the United States diplomatically?

SECRETARY POWELL: I think that people sometimes conclude that we have paid a terrible price in terms of our position and the respect that is accorded to us around the world. And that's not accurate.

The fact of the matter is, we went into Iraq, and we're in Iraq now with most of the nations of NATO supporting us -- they have put troops there -- with most of the European Union nations putting troops and other financial resources at the disposal of our efforts or at the disposal of the Iraqi people.

There is no shortage of foreign ministers and heads of state of government who are coming to the United States to build a better relationship with us. And so, I think that America has shown that, on a matter of principle, we will defend ourselves with like-minded other nations or we'll do it alone. It's a matter of principle to protect ourselves.

Now does that create a certain degree of anti-Americanism? Yes, it does. Will we be able to counter that over time? Yes, we will.

MS. ZAHN: So you will concede this has made your job tougher?

SECRETARY POWELL: My job is always made tougher by something that happens. It's not an easy job. But it's something that we will prevail over time, because people will see we did the right thing in Iraq. When you start to see the Iraqi Symphony Orchestra come here, when you start to see women participating in civil society, when you see town councils being formed, when you see Iraqis in their town council meetings arguing with each other, when you see how difficult it is to actually write a basic law or a constitution, that's not a problem, that's democracy.

And so we are now starting to see democracy take root in a country that has never known it before. And so when people see that happening, I think they will see, overtime, this was the right thing to do. These terrorists that are coming in, the old regime elements that are still hanging around, they'll be dealt with over time. And increasingly, they'll be dealt with, not just by coalition forces, but by Iraqi security forces, who want to take control of their country, and they want to build a better nation for themselves.

Now we have some problems we have to get over with respect to anti-Americanism, the Israeli-Palestinian issue, which most people keep looking to us to solve, and we're going to try and do everything we can, but America is still respected. And above all, America is still trusted around the world.

MS. ZAHN: Have any of your expectations coming into this job not been met, in terms of foreign policy and your imprint on it?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, you can never get on top of every issue, but we've done one heck of a job. I mean, just in the past two weeks, we have brought into fruition two of the most important programs in foreign policy in the last 30 years:

One is the Millennium Challenge Account, where we will be upping the amount of money we make available to the needy nations of the world, to a tune of $5 billion a year of additional money, to those nations that believe in democracy and believe in the rule of law.

The second initiative is the HIV/AIDS program that the President chartered for the nation, $15 billion in money, to go after this greatest killer on the face of the earth right now.

I'm proud of those two programs. I'm proud of the fact that we have the best relationship in China that we've had in 30 years, a solid relationship with Russia. The two enemies that I knew for most of my military career are now solid partners and friends.

I'm pleased that we helped the Georgian people bring in a new president, who was here this week. I'm pleased that we're getting rid of weapons of mass destruction out of Libya. I'm pleased that we've got Iran starting to realize they've got to move in the right direction. I'm pleased that we helped ECOWAS liberate Liberia, and I was co-chair of a meeting last month that got $500 million in donations for Liberia.

I'm pleased with all the things we are doing to strengthen our partnerships and alliances around the world. I'm pleased that I have had the opportunity to do this, as the senior foreign policy advisor of President George Bush, and in the name of President Bush try to do everything I can to achieve foreign policy goals of the American people.

MS. ZAHN: If President Bush is reelected, do you see yourself playing a role in a second Administration?

SECRETARY POWELL: I always say, I only serve at the pleasure of the President.