Interview With Aluf Benn of Ha'aretz

SECRETARY RICE: I think it's extremely important to try and stay on a steady course when you're dealing with a set of issues that are so complicated, so difficult and have been so long in trying to get to resolution. So from my point of view, yes, this is a complicated time; but as I said last night, if I waited for an uncomplicated time in the Middle East, I'm not sure I would ever get on an airplane. And so this is a good time, I think, to talk to our Israeli friends, to talk to our Palestinian partners, to discuss how we see the current situation.

I fully expect that in these discussions we will talk about the current situation. We must talk about the current situation.

QUESTION: Were you surprised by this development?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, we were continually saying to the Palestinian leadership that it was important that the Quartet principles be respected, and we are not going to make any judgments about whether or not this government will be a government that we can support or not until we see the government and we see its program and we see what it says. But thus far, I haven't seen anything that suggests that it will be in accordance with the Palestinian -- or with the Quartet principles.

QUESTION: Are you disappointed with Abbas or with the Saudi King?

SECRETARY RICE: I think and fully understand that the desire to have peace among Palestinians so that you don't have innocent Palestinians being killed was very important. But let's wait and see what happens with this government. When I meet with Prime Minister Olmert and with President Abbas, we will discuss the current situation, we will review and I hope recommit to existing agreements, and then I think we will have an opportunity to probe the diplomatic horizon as well. And it's time to start all of that work or to engage in all of that work.

QUESTION: Okay, because there's one thing that bothers me. The President spoke with Olmert Friday last. President Abbas only got a visit from Assistant Secretary Welch. Is that the appearance of an honest broker?

SECRETARY RICE: Well --

QUESTION: When you have the President --

SECRETARY RICE: The President doesn't need to or always make calls to everybody at any given time. The Prime Minister and the President hadn't talked for a while, in fact for quite a long time.

QUESTION: Yes, since the war, I guess.

SECRETARY RICE: And it was a good thing to have a chance to talk to the Prime Minister and to say that this was an important meeting, that it was important to go ahead with this meeting, and to reaffirm America's commitment to the Quartet principles.

QUESTION: And now talking about the political horizon, we have two very different points of view here. President Abbas has been talking about final status or nothing -- no interim agreements, no interim borders whatever. The Israelis have been saying -- both the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister -- no talk about Jerusalem, the refugees or '67 borders. How can you reconcile that?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, it --

QUESTION: Or which --

SECRETARY RICE: When you have different views, it's probably a good thing to get everyone in the same room so that we can talk about the views. We do have -- we do have some guidance. We have a roadmap that is important and one of the things that I'm going to want to talk to the parties about is reaffirming and in fact carrying out their mutual obligations under the roadmap, including under the first phase.

But we'll probe what that political horizon looks like, what issues have to be on the agenda.

QUESTION: Do you think that in the -- you know, given the current political realities on both sides, both leaders appear too weak for their own good, is it possible for them to make any compromises on these hard issues, to talk about Jerusalem?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, let me be very clear again. I'm not going to ask anyone to run when we really need to walk for a while, because as I said, I think if we ask everybody to run, somebody is going to fall down. So let's just take this one step at a time.

The roadmap has all of the issues that need to be resolved before a Palestinian state can be established, but the roadmap does not say that it's not possible to talk about the destination even if you have many, many conditions on both sides that need to be fulfilled before you can get there.

QUESTION: So when you talk about distinguishing the fulfillment or implementation from creating a better picture --

SECRETARY RICE: I think everybody understands that the roadmap is a very well put together document that shows very clearly that in order to have a Palestinian state certain things would have to happen. But the Palestinian people, I think, could benefit from knowing that there is, in fact, a destination and that the Israelis and Palestinians are prepared to talk about that destination.

QUESTION: What would you consider as a success tomorrow? Such an agreement to talk about that destination?

SECRETARY RICE: No, what I would consider a success tomorrow is that we've gotten started. Let's be realistic. We have not -- the two parties have not talked about the horizon for a very long time and we now have the complications of being in an uncertain time, in an interim time before the Palestinian government is formed. There are people who said to me, "Why don't you wait, wait until a government is formed, and then at least you'll know what you're dealing with?" And I said that I thought this was an especially important time to talk so that we can talk about what has happened and how we deal with the current situation, so that we can talk about the importance of continuing to make progress on some of the agreements that are already there.

It's going to be important to continue to deal with Abu Mazen. He is someone who has accepted the Quartet principles. We do have Sharm understandings about a ceasefire. We do have understandings about the movement and access agreement. It's really important right now to reaffirm those and to talk about how we're going to move forward. And it's important to begin to scratch the surface of how we would move forward toward a Palestinian state by talking about a political horizon. That's what I hope to achieve tomorrow.

QUESTION: Is there a carrot here or an implicit carrot if Hamas is -- if they accept the Quartet principles, will you take them off the list of terrorist groups? Will you give them any sort of recognition?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, let's take, again, one step at a time. The issue of how we de-list terrorists is a long and, in fact, statutory process in the United States. But clearly, a Palestinian government, no matter who's in it, that accepts the Quartet principles and says we will recognize the right of Israel to exist, we will renounce violence, we will accept all international agreements, and then acts on those principles is going to be a government that the United States, and I think the international community, is going to want to take a very hard look at supporting. But those principles are foundational for peace.

QUESTION: But when you look back -- you know, many Israeli politicians and officials are saying that it's all your fault by imposing this election on Israel, participation of Hamas. You know, if Hamas would have not participated, all these complications and problems would not be there.

SECRETARY RICE: You know, I guess we have -- the United States has more faith in the democratic process than that. Yes, elections produced an outcome that was complicated, perhaps even an outcome that we might not even have liked. But you know, we don't have a policy in the United States that says you only get to have an election if you let people that the United States agrees with. That's not our policy. And this is a long process of the Palestinians coming to terms with the multiple factions in the Palestinian territories, the multiple views in the Palestinian territories of how to relate to Israel, the multiple views of how to get to a two-state solution. This is a process.

I don't regret for a moment giving the Palestinian people or supporting the Palestinian people in making an electoral choice. But with electoral choice comes responsibility, and what we have been saying since the day that the elections took place is that the election is one thing, and it was free and fair and we acknowledge that, but the responsibility then is to have a government that can actually govern, a government that can be responsive to the needs of the Palestinian people, and those needs are going to be best met in a two-state solution. And to have a two-state solution, you simply must recognize the right of the other party to exist.

QUESTION: Can you say that by having brought the political participation, any process -- any government that will accept these principles may even have broader support and be more representative than just half the political spectrum?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I think it's a possibility. You know, the Palestinian people, I think like the Israeli people, recognize that a normal life would be a life in which there are two states living side by side in freedom and in peace. And I'm convinced that the great majority of Palestinians, the great majority of Israelis, want exactly that.

Now, eventually, I think a democratic process will reflect that underlying desire for peace. But we can't shortcut that process. The desire for peace has to be underpinned by some fundamental principles, and those fundamental principles include a renunciation of violence, the recognition of the right of both parties to exist and adherence to international agreements. And that's why the Quartet principles are so important. That's why we're continuing to reaffirm them. And that's why even in this complicated time it's important to deal with those Palestinians who do accept them. And Abu Mazen not only accepts them, he just reiterated them a couple of days ago. And I think it's a good time to reiterate that that relationship is going to remain intact.

QUESTION: One more thing about that. You spoke about the commitments under the first stage of the roadmap. There's been, say, a lax in the American pressure that used to be on Israel governing the outposts and settlement construction. We haven't heard much about it recently.

SECRETARY RICE: Well, sometimes we don't talk about things in public, but I think that the Israeli Government is quite aware that -- of American policy and of our expectations that that policy -- or that the obligations under the roadmap are going to be carried out.

QUESTION: Just the other day we had the President of Syria and Iran meeting and dg how to weaken both Israel and the U.S.

SECRETARY RICE: Yes.

QUESTION: I wonder if you have something to say about that. And more specifically, do you accept Bibi Netanyahu's argument that this is 1938 and Iran is like Nazi Germany and the world is complacent and we're facing a second holocaust?

SECRETARY RICE: Well, I'm fond of historical analogies, but not that fond of historical analogies. Look, what do we face with Iran? We clearly face a country that is pursuing policies in an assertive way that are contrary to the interests of the United States and contrary to the interests of all people who want a peaceful Middle East. We're seeing it in Iraq, where the Iranians continue to support destabilizing activities, including the transfer of technologies that are killing our soldiers. We see it in Lebanon. We see it in the Palestinian territories. And unfortunately, Syria has decided to be Iran's sidecar in all of these activities.

So we're making our views known about this. And as to Iran -- oh, and I should say, and of course, the Iranians are seeking nuclear technologies that could lead to a nuclear weapon. This was a President in Iran who says things that should never be said by the president of any nation, that Israel should be wiped off the face of the map. And so Iran is a challenge. There's no doubt about it.

We are pursuing a diplomatic path to isolate Iran for that kind of behavior. And I think the Iranian -- you're starting to see that the Iranians are beginning to understand that isolation. The Chapter 7 resolution that passed 15-0 was a shock, I think, to the Iranians. And we're going to continue to pursue the international side.

The United States, through President Bush's speech, has made clear that we will not accept Iranian activities in Iraq that endanger our soldiers. We have recommitted or made clear our commitment to the Gulf by the carrier that is there. And we're very actively pursuing financial measures that simply say to those who might invest in Iran that there are perhaps reputational and investment risks in dealing with a country that is under Chapter 7 and where the United States is continuing to designate and sanction Iranian banking institutions.

QUESTION: But can we Israelis rest assured that it's not 1938?

SECRETARY RICE: I can't -- I don't -- I can't speak to that historical analogy. But I can tell you that the one thing that we do know is that when the international community does not come together early to address aggressive behavior, that it never turns out well. And that's why it is important to address Iranian behavior now, not later.

QUESTION: Thank you very much.

SECRETARY RICE: Thank you.

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